“She Told Me To Burn My Mum’s Photos” | Emilee’s Survival Story

What happens when childhood trauma, generational neglect, and systemic failure collide? Emilee’s story is a raw, unfiltered look into survival against impossible odds. From losing her mother at age 7 to escaping abuse at 16, becoming a mum at 18, and eventually reclaiming her life through education and advocacy — this is a story of breaking the cycle.

In this episode, Emilee joins Carter to explore:

• Life as a young mum with complex PTSD
• The impact of childhood abuse, neglect, and gaslighting
• The fawn trauma response and how it shapes adult relationships
• Navigating self-diagnosed autism and neurodivergence
• Finding healing in motherhood, study, and spooky ghost tours

This episode is for anyone healing from trauma, parenting through pain, or looking for light in dark places. Emilee’s story will stay with you long after the episode ends.

🔔 Follow & leave a review if this conversation resonated with you.

#traumarecovery #neurodivergentparenting #cptsd #mentalhealthpodcast #youngmum #fawnresponse #touchedoutpodcast

Chapters

• 1:03 Intro & Emilee's Background
• 2:53 Life on Ghost Tours & Aradale Asylum
• 5:03 Mental Health History in Institutions
• 7:38 Emilee’s Early Trauma & Loss of Her Mum
• 10:33 Childhood Neglect and Abuse
• 13:53 Living with an Abusive Stepmother
• 17:03 The Breaking Point: Leaving Abuse Behind
• 21:03 Teenage Independence and Motherhood
• 24:51 Pregnancy, Parenting, and Found Family
• 30:01 Why Emilee Chose to Become a Teacher
• 31:51 Autism, Trauma & Self-Understanding
• 36:32 Navigating Self-Awareness and Professional Help
• 38:42 Emotional Regulation and Communication Strategies
• 40:52 Understanding the “Fawn” Trauma Response
• 43:12 Neurodivergence in the Classroom
• 44:38 Outro: Burst Pipes and Life Interruptions

Transcript

We would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of this land. We pay our respects to the elders past, present and emerging, but they hold the memories, the traditions and the culture of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people across the nation. The first thing she said to me was, I'm your mother now. And told me to burn all the pictures that I still had of my mum. And then she burned the wedding dress that... was supposed to go to me from my mum and basically anything that was attached to my mum had to go. 

Carter:
Okay, so today we have Emily. Emily is 30 from Victoria, Australia. She has one daughter who is 12 and she is the executive assistant of Australia's largest ghost tour company. Thanks for joining me. How are going? 
Emilee:
No problem. I am good. Very cold this morning, but good. 
Carter:
So cold this morning. Yep. My taps are still frozen over. So I haven't been allowed to have a coffee today. 
Emilee:
no, I had hot water but I didn't have cold water this morning so I've got a little bit there. 
Carter:
Yeah, no coffee, but I'm on a Red Bull, so that's fine.  So we'll start off with you telling me a little bit about yourself and your family and we'll go from there. 
Emilee:
So I am a very busy person. So I've got a lot going on all the time. So I am a young mother. had my daughter when I was 18, just freshly 18. She's currently 12, just about to turn 12 in a couple of days, actually.  I don't have any relatives really. I've moved about a place, the place as well, a lot currently in Victoria, but I grew up in WA and I lived in Queensland for almost five years as well. So kind of all over Australia. I'm currently studying full-time. I'm on semester break at the moment, but I'm studying a Bachelor of Education primary, which is something I've always wanted to do, working with kids. I'm specialising in inclusive education. And of course, as you've already mentioned, I do help run Australia's largest ghost tour companies. We do tours all across Victoria. Our most famous location is probably Aradale Lunatic Asylum Inn. Ararat just because of how large and immense it is, but we do do a lot of other tours as well. 
Carter:
Every time I go there, just is mind boggling how big it is and how all of the guides are constantly like, don't wander off because we're not going to find you if you do. 
Emilee:
That's very true.  I've gotten lost there myself since five, especially when I first started visiting. So I started becoming involved with the company in about 2020. 2021 is when I really got involved and slowly worked my way through, started doing little bits of social media and things like that. I have been  involved in both tours and things before in other places in the country, just as a interest in hobby dark history has always been just an interest of mine. And then I met my partner who currently is the owner and creator of Eerie Tours. But yes, the asylum is very, very large, very, very difficult to find people in. There's over 62 buildings actually on the entire site, including more modern facilities because the asylum only closed in the 90s. it wasn't that long ago that we still used institutionalisation as a method of taking care of people who experience disability. 
Carter:
Yeah. The thing that I love the most about those tours is that they delve into kind of the mental health of the people of the past and how bloody easy it was to land yourself in places like that. 
Emilee:
Yeah, very easy. You didn't really have to have any mental illness or disability to end up there. Something as simple as reading too many books. If you were a female, unfortunately, it was of course, very sexist and simply just existing as a female could kind of land you in those places. If you had MS or fluctuation in mood or even at sometimes if your family. didn't like you very much or you're a bit of an inconvenience. You weren't marrying off and bringing money back into the family. You could have very easily ended up there. But that's not saying that men didn't experience similar things as well. If you didn't speak English, if you were an immigrant, which was very common on the goldfields, if you were Chinese, you didn't learn English, you could have been put in asylum. 
Carter:
It's incredible. And just off the top of your head and then we'll move on because it's not off the top of your head. When did lobotomies stop? When was that something that ceased? 
Emilee:
So with lobotomies, we are 99.9 % certain that they would have occurred in Victoria at ARIDAP. There are no records of it. The reason being that it wasn't a kind of legally practiced thing in Australia. It wasn't a common occurrence. 
Carter:
gnarly. Okay, so we'll get back to you. little bit to get through. But thank you for the for the history. I appreciate that. I have something that people are interested in. So you have mentioned in your application that you are a young parent with long term complex trauma. Yes. Would you be happy to delve a little bit further into that and tell me a little bit about your personal history and experience in mental health. 
Emilee:
I'm sure I'm definitely happy to do that.  So I will roll it all the way back and kind of summarize my story pretty quickly because there is a lot there. When I, it probably all kind of started when I was about five years old. There was a period of very fast moving, big events and it started off with, I had very severe pneumonia and ended up in ICU. I just started.  So I was in there, think for about a month, it's hard for me to remember those details, but I remember Starlight Foundation came and visited me. So I was pretty sick. I did recover from that, thankfully, obviously I'm here, but not long after that,  I believe around then is when my mother was diagnosed with lung cancer. She was only in her 30s. So very, very young to get that diagnosis, directly correlated with smoking. And she died in 2000, October of 2000. So I was in year one at that stage. During that period as well as when my brother was diagnosed at the time with Asperger's, which is obviously an outdated diagnosis now. And during that time, I was also assessed for it, but just didn't meet the criteria. A couple of points off, but you know, I never really went back in and visited that again because that was back in the nineties.  So there was a lot kind of going on. had a younger sister as well. the time my mother passed, there was my sister who was four years younger than me. There was me, I was about seven. And there was my brother who was about a year or so older than me. So three kids my father was left with, all very, very young. I remember during that time, we had a lot of support at first for the first few weeks, but then slowly I'm not sure if it was my father isolating himself due to the grief or not, but the support died down quite quickly. were kind of expected to go back to normal, but they didn't.  I have some understanding that my dad may have had mental health issues prior to all of this. And I think  the event of my mum passing might've exacerbated those issues quite a bit. So that resulted in my dad becoming quite neglectful of us and of himself. My dad was a hoarder. So the house very much went into disrepair quite quickly and  we were all, all of us three kids were confined to basically sleeping in the one room of our house because the rest of it wasn't accessible. I, and as well as my siblings flew under the radar a lot. My sister was younger and kind of cruised through. I did very well academically at school. School was my thing. There wasn't really. any signs apart from maybe our dirty clothes and things. the area that I grew in was a really low socioeconomic area anyway. So those kinds of things were just happening at the school. The school had a lot of kids with a lot of complex issues to worry about. And my brother, the focus was obviously his autism. So the neglect kind of slowly just there, it was there, but it was under the radar. It wasn't as obvious as some of the other kids that we were at school with. I think maybe that part of the reason why I wasn't noticed as much. Plus we didn't have many advocates in our life that was owning my dad and he was really isolated. So from there, my dad became friends with a lot of drug users. I was probably around the age of eight when I first saw someone take drugs intervenously and my other siblings had witnessed similar things, but I tended to be the mother of the household. I had to be from a very young age because my dad was not able to do a lot of things and my siblings needed someone. And I think my dad needed someone. So it kind of fell on me, especially because I was very kind of kid and was very capable of doing quite a lot. So it took a lot on then. long story short in that period. So from about the age of seven to the age of 13. It was just a lot of that neglect, a lot of ups and downs. My dad was physically abusive during that time. Not to the point of needing hospitalization or care. was definitely there. I'm not going to deny that.  And it was infrequent. The issues became a lot worse when my dad remarried. So he married a woman who has very, very complex mental health issues.  And on top of that, she was abusive because I don't think that mental health issues are ever conducive to being an abusive person.  but hers were incredibly complex. Later on, I came to find out she had multiple personalities and a lot of that aligned with how difficult I found the abuse to deal with. So when she came in, met. I met her once before she moved into our house. So as a kid who hasn't had any female in the household for years and years, and then all of sudden within a month she's moved in. And the first thing she said to me was, I'm your mother now. and told me to burn all the pictures that I still had of my mom. And then she also, yeah. And then she burned the wedding dress that was supposed to go to me from my mom. And basically anything that was attached to my mom had to go. So yeah, pretty full on, just straight off the bat. was there and she wanted to make sure that there was no essence of my mother around because for some reason she was jealous of a dead woman. So yeah, and then. mental health very quickly became an issue. She had very severe OCD and it was very much controlling her life. I am suspected of having OCD now, but again, mental health issues is not conducive with being abusive. This would lead to abuse. If we left a crumb on the bench, she'd wake us up at three o'clock in the morning before school the next day. and abuse us because there was a  single crumb. There was worse abuse. For instance, my brother who has autism didn't clean a plate to her standard. She then made him eat off the toilet because that's what he deserved to do. Things like that. I won't go into all of it, but she was incredibly, incredibly  abusive and just no sense of personal space or respect or anything for the children of my dad. had children herself, but obviously they were the same standards. We did have her youngest son who was being about five when he moved in with us, lived with us and he was definitely favored and didn't get any of these views. And then she had two much older children who have definitely experienced their own mental health issues. Perhaps  originating from her, but they do all still have contact with her. So I'm pretty sure it's a very complex relationship there. But she was around from when I was about 13 to 16. So I was the main target of her abuse. I think maybe there was her viewing me as part of my mother and she found that very, you know, triggering anything I did, absolutely anything at all. If I walked home from school and didn't smile enough when I got home. I was an awful person and doing it deliberately to upset her. At Christmas, Christmas was the worst time for her  very, very much. would spend weeks prepared and become very obsessed with making the day perfect. And of course on that day, it was never perfect for her. If we didn't wake up with enough enthusiasm running in, which we never did because we knew the day was going to be awful. she would just absolutely lose it.  She would self-harm. She would do it in front of me. There was one time where she went to the hospital, came home after trying to overdose and asked me to come closer so she could whisper to me and whispered to me that  she did that because my face makes her feel so sick that she couldn't live with herself. So very, very brutal abuse for years. Yes. I know it's quite heavy and I hope this isn't too triggering for you at all. 
Carter:
No, not at all. I appreciate you sharing it. And yeah, I hope if it's too triggering for you, please don't feel the need to share. 
Emilee:
Well, of course. Yeah. I guess over the years I know my limits and what I can talk about and what I can't. There's definitely things that I won't talk about. Not just because it's semi-triggering for me, but because it, I mean, I've spoken to psychologists about it and they've cried and said, I think that's a bit much for me to handle and I've been calmed off. know, there's a lot there. Basically any form of abuse you can imagine from sexual to  physical to mental being there, done that.  But yeah, so the kind of culmination of her and her abuse ended when I was 16. And it was quite an interesting experience. She had abused my sister and I was obviously very upset about it.  Trying to protect her as much as possible. And I was in the car with my father and she wasn't there, which was a rare occurrence because she always had to be there. She was very jealous if I had any time to speak to my dad alone. And I was in the car and I was arguing with my dad and telling him how unacceptable it was that he had let her into our lives. And then he just kind of stood by and let her continue to abuse all his children and how disgusting I found that. And then the usual excuses from him. Okay. I just think he was a very lonely man.  And I said to him, once we got home, I sat in the car and I said, I'm not going inside. If I go inside with this mood or this demeanor, she will sniff it out and that'll be it. Just give me two minutes to calm down and then I'll come inside. And he said, sure. Okay, fine. So I sat in the car at the front. Everyone else went inside. first I didn't go inside. So then that was triggering to her. So she came running out the house and trying to smash the windows of the car. And because the second I saw her come out, I locked the doors. So she's screaming at me through the window of the car. And for some reason that day, I thought, I'm not going to look at her. I'm not going to engage. I'm just going to stare ahead and pretend like she's not even there. That was the first time I had given her any of my energy. No attention, no reaction, no nothing. And that's tipped her over the edge. To the benefit of me, I'm not sure, but that was the day that she moved out. So she decided that day that she had enough and she was going to leave. She'd always threatened to leave and move out and all sorts of things, but she never did. But that day she did. And she said it was, you know, obviously my fault, which is funny because I didn't actually do anything at all. I went to extra effort not to, but of course it was still my fault. So she left and moved into a rental. The day that she left, she said she wasn't, didn't want to see my face around. So I had to hide in my bedroom. At one point I really need to go to the bathroom. So obviously it takes a whole day to move. So I went to the bathroom and she saw me. So she chased me out of the house with a kitchen knife down the street. I had no shoes on and it was like something like 30 something degrees. And I remember my feet burning on the bitumen as she screamed down the street and called me a devil. So yes, that was the last day I kind of had any sort of major interactions with her. And that didn't mean abuse and neglect stop. After that, my father essentially left me and my younger sister at home. Another part of that story is that my brother just before she left had actually left and been taken into custody by my father's mother  and went through the courts and everything. My sister and I for some reason weren't considered when he was taken out of my father's custody. And my dad's mother wouldn't take us because at the time you got more money for someone who was on the spectrum and disabled. I think that's a lot of where it came from with per,  very obviously intergenerational problems. But yes, so I was left home alone, taking care of my little sister from about 16. Tried to do the high school thing was very difficult. Ended up working full time as much as I loved school and was succeeding at it. And yeah, it's, It kind of went on from there where I was in and out of home. There were periods before that of being kicked out of the house and living at friends from 14, 15, know, um, but obviously very independent from that stage and had my kind of partying era. Cause I had a house to myself and I was 17 and I was working full time and you know, so obviously met all sorts of dodgy and awful people then as well with my adult supervision. But yeah, it, it. I was two months up of 18 when I felt pregnant, obviously not intentionally. And I thought, you know what, this is my opportunity to make sure that this never ever happens again. So I stayed in Perth while I had my daughter. And then the second I could, I was very fortunate and unfortunate. My grandmother, who was my mom's mom, was the only incredible person that I had around me ever. 
Carter:
Okay. 
Emilee:
She did what she could, but she was elderly, so she couldn't help as much as she'd like to. My dad's wife, her often wouldn't let her near us. So yeah, she was a lovely woman and she passed away just as my daughter was born, which was heartbreaking because I loved her very much. But I did get some inheritance. And the second that hit my bank account, I bought a plane ticket for the furthest place from Perth that I could, which was Brisbane. I drew a straight line across the country and I left. And I haven't been back since. have no plans on returning to where I grew up. And that was the day that I had to start processing all the trauma because it was very normalized for me. And after I moved, I realized that a lot of the things I experienced as a child were not normal. 
Carter:
Yeah. Well, what a story. 
Emilee:
Yeah, if I'm talking to you, stop me. There is a lot, obviously. 
Carter:
No, this platform and this podcast is for my guests to share their stories. So I appreciate it. It's hard to kind of figure out what I want to ask next, you know? So first of all, are you in contact with any of your siblings now or? 
Emilee:
No, unfortunately. So my sister, she, as far as I'm aware, is very, very unwell.  Very paranoid. I wouldn't know what her diagnosis are. I have tried to contact her over the years, but unfortunately it's too triggering. And with my brother, I do know that he's become a librarian, which is very well suited for him. He's got a beautiful photographic memory for words, always has.  But we also... find it too triggering to speak to each other because it becomes real again because we both lost contact with each other when he was taken out of custody and we've tried over the years going back and forth and it just it hasn't worked. It's just been too much for us. 
Carter:
Yeah, yeah, no, that's fair enough. It's unfortunate, but it is fair enough So I would like to discuss Your pregnancy and the birth how was how was all of that? Was it a fairly straightforward pregnancy? Obviously with like moving to the other side of the country and Processing of your life's experiences whilst pregnant would have been pretty pretty intense 
Emilee:
Thank you. 
Carter:
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Emilee:
Yeah, I mean, she's a dream and she was a dream when I was pregnant too.  I didn't have any issues really throughout the whole pregnancy. I crave bananas a lot. That's probably gonna remit from it really. Yeah, it was really, really easy. I obviously kind of friends filtered off from there, which was a good thing because a lot of the people I was friends with at the time weren't great for me anyway.  I was just happy and I knew that this is my reason to live. Essentially, I've got a reason now and motivation. Yeah, when I had her, I had her in the hospital. I don't call him father. The person who helped me make her has never been involved. He was given the option, but I chose not to be in that. Totally okay. I said, you're either in or you're out. There's no backwards and forwards because that could be really damaging. And he was out. said, sweet. I'm going to do my own thing and raise this kid really well. And I have heard snippets of how he's going and it's not been great, but so I'm kind of really glad that, you know, that's, that's how things turned out. And yeah, so I essentially did it all on my own. It was obviously challenging and lonely at times. And it was a massive learning curve, obviously, but I'd already had a lot of practice in life taking care of kids because it was kind of put onto me. I was also the designated unofficial mother of a bunch of kids from the people that my dad used to hang around that used to do drugs and things. So I used to babysit young children since I was about eight or nine. So those kinds of things weren't too bad. Sometimes I'd look for help. Sometimes I was just kind of doing it on my own and it wasn't until my daughter was about one that I met when I was in Queensland, I met a man who we consider. father of my child to this day. Even though we're still separated, you would not know that he's not biologically related. We are so grateful and lucky to have a man like that in her life who's chosen to take that role and continues to do so. We fly her back to... Because we moved to Victoria together and that's why I end up here. But he's since moved back to Queensland as he has another child. Every school holiday she's there with him and he is so super involved with absolutely every aspect of her life. We're so, so fortunate to have him that we were together for eight years. So I did have some support early on in her childhood with him, but we had a pretty rocky relationship because I was processing all the trauma at the time. And we also come to realize that he's also quite neurodivergent too. And we didn't know that. So there was a lot going on, there always has been. 
Carter:
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. It's tricky when the neurodivergence is diagnosed later in life, when you kind of established in a relationship, because it's such a personal journey to kind of relearn who you are. And a of the time you end up realizing that your entire life is going to be different and you know, your wants and your needs change and you may no longer be. compatible with the person you're with. So it's super upsetting, but it does happen.  It's awesome to hear though that he's still super involved. I love hearing those step parenting stories where the relationship unfortunately ends, but the relationship with the children remains. My first guest that I ever had on the podcast, Kate, she,  she was much the same, relationship ended and then she ended up being a parent with her ex's mother. So he wasn't even a part of the picture. Sorry, not mother. So his, her ex's ex partner, so the mother of the child, they ended up co-parenting together and he wasn't even in the picture. So it was pretty cool. 
Emilee:
Yeah, which is, which is so beautiful. I love that, you know, cause at the end of the day, it's about kids. They're the priority. And if when adults can see past their differences to prioritize the kids needs like there's nothing, nothing better than that. mean, him and I, after all of our issues in the relationship, I've been quite messily because we just dragged it on too long. We were trying to make this work desperately. Um, but when it ended, it was messy for a little bit. We are best friends. call each other, oh gosh, every second day just to give updates on our life. We grew up for eight years together through our 20s. So I'm really, really, really grateful for him. 
Carter:
Yeah, definitely. So what, that made you decide that you wanted to become a early childhood educator or primary childhood educator? Is it directly linked from your experiences? Your, your want to ensure that the health and safety and education of the young generation. 
Emilee:
 yes and no. So I've always wanted to be an educator,  for as long as I can remember. And it's not necessarily just for protecting and,  you know, giving children the tools to be able to handle difficult situations. It's really for me, a love of learning. I'm so curious. I have to know everything all the time.  doesn't matter what it is. all sorts of odd facts and things that that's just me and who I am. And academics has always been something that I have thrived at. You know, so it's it's enjoying that sense of wonder and excitement and curiosity that really fuels me and I want to share that with other people. It doesn't really matter to me if it's kids or adults. I love inspiring people. I love getting people to be curious and you know, find their own reasons to want to learn. I'm very, very philosophical person. So You know, yeah, it's that curiosity. Curiosity is what drives me. And I want to share that. 
Carter:
Awesome. love that. me. If, uh, sorry, my brain ain't brain in today. 
Emilee:
You're okay, you're okay. I wouldn't expect any less from a couple of neurodivergence. 
Carter:
Straight up. You did ask that you were tested for aspergias at the time. We'll now call it autism.  Later in life, have you received that diagnosis formally or are you pretty certain that you are on the spectrum or? 
Emilee:
I mean, I've questioned it all my life.  When I was younger, I had a speech impediment,  strong interests in things, you know, it gets very difficult when you've experienced complex trauma actually, because a lot of the  symptoms of CPTSD  cross over with symptoms on the spectrum. just general neurodegenerative needs and also being I don't particularly like the word, but a gifted student. That comes with a sense of neurodivergency as well, as long as I'm thinking. So it's all kind of muddled at this point for me. I just try and understand myself and try my best to treat myself with a little bit of empathy. But that could be a possibility. I've also read studies that children who do grow up with  siblings who are  on the spectrum. can also pick up those traits just from being around them. That's just an old part of growing up. You pick up the traits of people around you. So I wonder, you know, when I was younger, did I just pick up more traits because my brother and I were so close in age or am I somewhere on the spectrum? At this point in my life,  I don't feel it's necessary for me to explore that  because the only reason that would motivate me is to have a piece of paper to prove to people and I don't feel the need to prove it. to anything to anyone and I don't need it for myself  because I use strategies and I've learned strategies over time that help me cope with the day to day. So yeah, I kind of just take myself  as it comes really. 
Carter:
That's the, it's a good thing about neurodivergence is a lot of the time they're super self-aware and we under, we can understand our needs, not necessarily be able to put them into words, but intrinsically we can understand our needs. And yet the end of the day, that piece of paper doesn't mean a unless you, know, you have kind of high needs or complex needs that requires NDIS support, things like that. 
Emilee:
Yeah, of course, it's a sport thing. And you know, if I do talk to doctors and things, it gets to the point where I've read more on that particular subject than there are of you know, being being that's that self aware and getting help is unfortunate. Because when you do talk about things, you're like, Yes, I know this, this, this, this, this, this, they're like, Okay, like, what do we do about that? Or, you know, I just, I don't get much out of seeing seeing professionals that often because I'm like, well, I know I've got all these things, just maybe need help with this and this. And they're like, well, but like, you know, it's fine. You've got this. That's like, oh, but yeah, like it, is a, it is definitely a positive that people who are neurodivergent can be self-aware, but it, can also be a negative because maybe we don't allow ourselves that room for, for support and Also, people don't quite know what to do with people who are so good at articulating themselves. I found a lot of professionals, these people coming in and they have to figure out, you know, what's going on and doing these things where someone like myself might walk into a room and go, yeah, I've got this wrong with me. And these are all the strategies that I need and this is what I use. And they're like, okay, you know, I don't know if you've experienced any of that yourself. Hey Maddie, do you want to know what one of my favourite profile features is on Spoonie? That you can use it to post more photos of your dog? I'll take any opportunity I can to post dog pics, but no. Did you know that Spoonie allows you to share your support needs on your profile so that your new friends can understand you a bit better? On mine, I've got routines, quiet spaces, energy conservation and visual schedules because we all know how much I love mind maps and naps. That's so cool. Can I put energy conservation there? I have to pace my energy or else I get really exhausted. You absolutely can. There's so many cool profile features that make Spoonie unique to any other social platform. You can also display your conditions or illnesses, share your interests and let people know how your energy levels are tracking by using our signature Spoon status. I'd really encourage people to check it out for themselves. You can sign up for free using the link in this podcast or you can find us in the App Store or Google Play. 
Carter:
I haven't really seen any professionals post ADHD diagnosis. So my ADHD diagnosis is official. do, am medicated, you know, my five ants and whatnot. Autism diagnosis is unofficial. So my psych basically was like, you've definitely got it. Do you want like visual diagnosis? Cause that's going to cost. I was like, no, I'm good. you're, if like, if you've just been like, yep, probably that's enough for me. Cause I. Port or anything like that. But,  you know, prior to that, I was seeing a therapist regularly through my work. Cause I worked at mom's for youth justice. So we had therapists provided for us. She's the only name. She's the only psychologist that I've ever seen that actually got me and. 
Emilee:
Yeah. 
Carter:
like was properly helpful. she, after my diagnosis, I saw her, think once more before, because I was on night shift, it was a bit difficult to try and book in. I saw her once and we talked about it. And I talked about how it's hard for me to articulate my needs, especially if I'm in a heightened state. And a lot of the time, like if I'm having an argument with my wife or something like that, just for an example, if I don't allow myself time and quiet to process my emotions and process thoughts, I can't articulate my needs. I can't articulate my points of view. I become heightened and I get like, yelly and nothing I say is what I want to say. or need to say. you know, in our relationship, for example, we've now kind of gotten to a point where she accepts that if we have an argument, I need time to process and I will send a text message to get my point of view across. And that's how I need to be heard. Otherwise, just doesn't work. Otherwise I just, everything that comes out of my mouth doesn't really make sense. And it's not conducive to the conversation. 
Emilee:
Yeah, 100 % understand you there. You know, when I'm, when my PTSD is triggered and things, can look different depending on the circumstances and depending on how frightened I get. It used to be a lot more difficult. Obviously over the years I've gotten a lot better at managing those things. I don't get as, as triggered by things.  Sometimes it's just a case of being really quiet. Other times if I'm escalated enough, I'm in full,  you know, reliving the moment and I'm not here. I'm not on this planet. I'm somewhere else. And in that time, there is no chance anything anyone says I'm going to retain or do. And  a lot of the things that people think are helpful are the opposite. Such as, know, reaching out and hugging, touching things like that. That's the opposite of what I need at that time. So yeah, totally understand how it can be difficult to communicate. know, in those states and I see that in children now, you know, in classrooms. It's astonishing the amount of neurodivergency that is obvious in a classroom. I've worked in both a specialist school setting as well as  in stream schooling and the same issues happen anywhere.  Whether you're in a private school, whether you're, you know, it's a low socioeconomic area, they're there.  I think we're just more aware of them these days. But yeah, I just wrote an assignment on the heightened states of children and strategies to manage, know, and acknowledge where in that process, you know, they are because obviously there's a lot of physiological things that go on that you can't control. said that you present with anger when you're heightened. 
Carter:
It's not so much anger. It's like just a raised voice because I feel like I'm not being heard. And the only way my mind at the time can be heard is to be loud, but it's still not, not constructive. So yeah. 
Emilee:
I'll go the opposite. There's, yeah, I, so a lot of people don't know, and this is something I'm not sure you've heard of or not, but there's commonly we talk about the fight, flight or freeze stress responses, trauma responses. But there is a fourth one and that is not spoken about enough, which is porn.  And that's, that's me. came to learn that that's my response because of the level of abuse I was experiencing. I was taught on how to. talk my way out of things and do things that please the person so then the abuse doesn't continue. So when I am triggered, I am very vulnerable to other people because at first I'll have my usual response, like fully logical and if someone's pissed me off, I will be pissed off. Give me about 10 minutes and I'll be apologetic. And I will be essentially at their mercy. So I've got to be really careful about who I hang around because I am a narcissist training.  So yeah, I've got to really communicate  those things to people that I that I meet and you know, if they are going to be around me, much at all, I've really got to make clear that look when I am in those situations. I may seem like I'm okay, but it's a coping mechanism. It's a defense mechanism.  and I am doing everything to, in a way, please you,  even though it may cross my personal boundaries. 
Carter:
Yeah, right. It's, I've never heard it articulated like that. So I really appreciate it. I actually just released a new episode before we started talking. My guest and I do discuss fight, flight, freeze and fawn responses. And she also was fawn. So it was in a different kind of context though. It's like she discusses with her psych.  Like her just, her need to please everyone and be liked by everyone. And if there's someone that doesn't like her. So the example was that her psychic said, okay, just as an example, there's someone that doesn't like you. What, what do you do? And she goes, well, why don't they like me? What can I do to make them like me? And they're like, they just don't like you. There's no, like you can't make them like you. And, and she kind of described that inside herself, she became anxious just at this. example that wasn't even real because she couldn't in her mind understand like, well, obviously there has to be something that I can do to make this person like me. And it's not even a real person. it's a strong response. And I'm amazed that it isn't more widely known. 
Emilee:
Yeah, yeah. It's not even taught in our lessons. I just completed a unit on, you know, assisting trauma  in children and it wasn't mentioned once. And I kind of had to put my hand up in classes and go, actually, there's another one. And it's the one that I feel like sometimes can fall under the radar because the other ones you see these physical signs of, but to kick out the people, please. a more difficult because they're trying to please you. A lot of people don't want to acknowledge it because it's beneficial for them even maybe subconsciously. Yeah, mate. 
Carter:
seconds. I'm so sorry there's someone at the door. I'm going to have to let you go, my water pipes have burst and there is water spraying fucking everywhere. As a lot of you know, it takes a lot of time, energy and resources to bring you these episodes and if you've found value in the show, I'd love your support. A small donation goes a long way in keeping the show running and whether it's the price of a coffee or something more, every bit helps. For more information on how you can donate, check the show notes or head to touchedout.com. Cheers guys.