Gentle Parenting and Boundaries | Insights from a Trauma Specialist

Welcome to Episode 17 of Touched Out! A Mental Health and Parenting Podcast.
 
Today, we unravel the delicate balance of gentle parenting and setting boundaries with our special guest, Mark, a clinical psychotherapist and trauma specialist from Montreal, Canada.

Mark's Background and Career

Mark's upbringing and personal experiences have profoundly influenced his approach to parenting. Overcoming his own substance abuse struggles and being diagnosed with drug-induced paranoia, Mark began his career by aiding traumatized youth. These experiences have shaped his work as a psychotherapist and his parenting philosophy.

A Heartwarming Love Story

Discover the heartwarming story of how Mark met his wife, Kara. Together, they navigated the complexities of mental health during pregnancies and births, strengthening their bond and shaping their parenting journey.

Balancing Work and Family Life

Mark shares the challenges he faced upon returning to work as a therapist while balancing the innocence of his son and the harrowing experiences of his clients. He offers personal insights into the delicate balance of being both a parent and a professional.

Raising Kind and Assertive Children

Mark's main goal as a parent is to raise a child who embodies kindness, assertiveness, and engagement while understanding the significance of boundaries. He emphasizes the importance of these values in fostering a healthy and respectful relationship with children.

Debunking Misunderstandings About Gentle Parenting

In an enlightening discussion, Mark and I debunk societal misunderstandings surrounding gentle parenting. We shed light on effective parenting strategies that incorporate gentleness and boundary-setting.

Join the Conversation

Thank you for joining me and Mark on this episode. We hope you enjoyed the discussion and gained valuable insights into the delicate balance of gentle parenting and setting boundaries.

Chapters

• 0:00 Working with Traumatized Youth
• 8:22 Guest's Personal Mental Health Journey
• 14:32 Meeting the Wife and Starting a Family
• 16:52 Challenges of Pregnancy and Birth
• 19:38 Impact of Work on Mental Health
• 23:47 Challenges of Parenthood and Self-Care
• 27:33 Importance of Emotional Availability in Parenting
• 29:50 Embracing Failure and Challenging Unrealistic Expectations
• 31:26 The Influence of Personal Experiences on Supportive Parenting
• 38:57 Gentle Parenting: Setting Boundaries and Teaching Emotional Intelligence
• 45:24 The Importance of Flexibility, Self-Awareness, and Balance in Parenting

Transcript

We would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of this land. We pay our respects to the elders, past, present and emerging, but they hold the memories, the traditions and the culture of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people across the nation.

Carter

Warning this podcast contains explicit language and discusses sensitive topics related to mental health, childhood trauma, birth, trauma, abuse, miscarriage, and suicide. Listener discretion is advised. If you find these subjects distressing or triggering, we recommend taking caution and considering whether to proceed with. Listening. If you or someone you know is struggling, please reach out to a mental health professional or a trusted individual for support. Your well being is our priority. Welcome to another episode of the Touched Out Podcast. Today, we unravel the delicate balance of gentle parenting and setting boundaries. Today's guest is Mark, a clinical psychotherapist and trauma specialist hailing from Montreal, Canada, delving into his upbringing, we uncover how his experiences shaped his approach to parent. Mark began his career by aiding traumatised youth after facing his own substance abuse struggles, which came to a head when Mark was diagnosed with drug induced paranoia. We explore how these experience influenced his work and parenting philosophy. We also delve into the heartwarming story of how Mark met his wife Kara and how their past smouldered their relationship. Together, they faced the intricacies of mental health during pregnancies and. Withs Mark shares, the challenges he encountered upon returning to work as a therapist while grappling with the innocence of his son and the harrowing experiences of his clients unveiling personal insights gained from both a parent and a professional mark emphasises the importance of embracing imperfections in the parenting journey. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Hit like and share on the podcast platform of your choice so the podcast can continue to find its way into the ears of new listeners. You can also find us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and YouTube at Touched Out podcast. For those who wish to support the show in other ways, you can also donate via PayPal. You can find social media and donation links as well as information from today's episode in the episode description. Thank you for being part of my podcast family. Let's keep this journey going together.

Speaker 1

You'll be fine. It's all right.

Carter

Alright, so today we have Mark, Mark. Is 36 and he has. Two kids, A2 year old. And a five month old. Are you going?

Mark

we're doing really well. Thanks for having me.

Carter

Thank you for being here mate. We've we've just spent the whole. Half hour troubleshooting to. Get you on here, so hopefully all goes well, let's. Into it mate. Why don't you tell me a little bit? About yourself and a little bit about your family.

Mark

Beautiful. Yes, so. Obviously my accent is not from around here, originally from Canada, from Montreal grew, probably stayed around the Montreal, Canada area till about 17. 18 moved up to well for a little while. Did some study there and then did some travel for a good three for years in that time before I found myself in Australia and I moved up to far North Queensland as my kind of first. Point of call. To make a documentary film up there. About domestic and family violence in the Cape York area, it was an organisational film that I was doing that kind of spoke about services, service, delivery of a particular organisation I was working with and. Really start to fall in love with, with work and psychotherapy and better, really lovely psychotherapist out there. And so yeah, this is actually what what I want to do also was really sick of editing audio and video all the time and thought this could be a nice shift for me so eventually moved. From Cape York Peninsula in Queensland to Victoria, and started my studies in psychotherapy and am now a clinical masters in psychotherapy and E MDR, specialist and trauma.

Carter

Awesome. Awesome. That's a pretty cool history. Why don't you tell me a bit more about what psychotherapy is and MDR and all of the jargon that you just use?

Mark

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, sorry sometimes. I forget. I just go. Go on my. Go on my rampage. But so psychotherapy. The reason why I studied psychotherapy. There was there was obviously other options I could have done. Psychology could have done psychiatry. I was really interested in psychiatry actually or social work. But the thing that really stuck with me. For psychotherapy was the relational aspect to it, so it is non. Particularly diagnostic, it treats more causality than symptomology, so you know you have a headache instead of instead of giving a pen. At all you. Actually, work out why you're always getting headaches. It's similar for emotional Wellness. I believe in trauma experiences. I think often in a Western world. The way we perceive the world is that we're looking for quick fixes and we're looking to engage and manage in a way that can help us immediately, but we don't often look back, look into our histories and try and understand what's happened to. In in our more core themed experience. So that's why I that's why I move more towards psychotherapy studies. And from there, you know, I I started doing work with traumatised young people across the sector, young people in residential care. Young people who had been sexually abused sexually assaulted. Who had had experiences of grooming, who had had really significant trauma histories? You know, sometimes we're talking about 20 different placements in a year. So, you know, if you imagine that's almost two different placements in a in a month over 2 placements in a month and and you know, we start to wonder how that impacts. Someone's sense of attachment and safety in the world, so it became more and more fascinated around how we manage. Trauma symptoms and how we create a safe world for a person who is has maybe never experienced it before in their life and that that's what moved me more to the MDR training, which was I was mind desensitisation reprocessing. It's kind of. All the rage. Now, but a couple of years ago wasn't as well known and and what we do with E MDR is we trace back to the core of traumatic events. And process through eye movement to that original traumatic event that happened. So if you liken it to a, you know, a 7 year old who has fallen off their bike and mum and dad are there and they look at the the child and they start yelling at them and saying, you know, you're. Stupid. You're an idiot. Why did you fall? Sure. No fallen. Don't ever do that again. And the young person got got a broken arm and the ambulance comes. And the dad says don't cry. That young person's experience. Forever around falling, it's going to be safe. Very different than my experience of falling because they are going to associate that original fall that first major fall they had where they were yelled at, screamed that, shamed for their emotional experience. They've been associated with every other potential fall in the future. So what? Emdr does, is it looks particularly at the original fall, the 1st fall, that caused most significant trauma and processes that. So it kind of unties us from from future events that we can maybe do things a little bit differently.

Carter

OK. Awesome. That's super interesting. I had personally never heard of it until you and I discussed it previously. So how does your history? Tie in with your wanting to help people and your kind of quest for knowledge and your career path.

Mark

Yeah, it's look, it's a good question. It's. And it's been a a road, that's for sure. So if I take myself kind of way back to Canada in a way grew grew up in a very securely attached home. Mom, mom and Dad were great. They were really mum was extremely present. She was emotionally attuned. Highly anxious at times as well, and I was an extremely sensitive kid. I remember being sensitive, so sensitive that I would just cry at the the. Drop of a. Hat and not really knowing when I was young, had to manage and process those emotions. Dad was dad. Dad was pretty stellar as well. He worked a lot. He was a an engineer, an aeronautics engineer and would be kind of on the road a little bit. But you know, I have great memories of us camping together and hanging out together. But if we think of kind of inherited trauma, you've got. Mum, who was Irish. Irish Protestant dad, who was Catholic migrant, moved when he was nine years old from Sicily, and so there would have been definitely strained along the way in the relationship to different cultures. The meeting of two families, Protestant and and Catholic, especially when. In in Ireland you were having really significant more still between than the North and South and Protestants and Catholics and so there would have been some strong views happening there which I do believe probably caused some tensions along the way in terms of their relationship but also. So potentially the the way I was parented and so I I remember growing up in a really happy home but with with, you know, some some tension and some anxiety. And I think with my sensitivity, I I definitely experienced that and we kind of fast, Fast forward couple of years. Down the road to high school, where I was just starting to gain. Confidence starting to gain a sense of self had some really great friends and kind of lost it a little bit along the way in the last couple of years and maybe the first years after after high school into college where I kind of got more into marijuana and due to my sensitivity, I think I was really. There is a predisposition for some mental health there for me, so high, high anxiety, high sensitivity and then marijuana, which kind of deepens that led to some drug induced. Paranoid schizophrenia or mental illness for me, which?

Speaker

Took me on.

Mark

A bit of a journey in my early 20s where I really had to do some some soul searching and and some engagement around what what my own identity was, who I was in the world and and what was safe for me.

Carter

Yeah, certainly sounds like you've been through the ringer. A little bit there, mate.

Mark

Yeah, look it it it it it was a timer, you know, I'll I'll never forget. So, you know, obviously now, now I I as a clinical psychotherapist, they treat a lot of drug induced psychosis. Out of treatment resistant depression, so to have had some of that lived experience from an earlier age, it's definitely provided me a little bit of insight into the level of fear that people experience when they're constantly in that. Fight or flight? Mode and I know this often happens with people who particularly experience. ******* do. Schizophrenia or drug induced mental illness, schizoaffective disorder, that your hallucinations, both auditory and visual, lead to this constant engagement of your reptilian brain where you're just always searching for the next threat. And when you're that height and your cortisol is so high. You have such little time to focus on your own individual and personal needs. That I I I get it. It's pretty terrifying place to be in and luckily I think I'm one of the very few. Luckily you know, I actually didn't have access. Not that I didn't have access to a psychologist. I could have if I wanted to, probably wouldn't have back in the 2000s anyway in terms of what schizophrenia and and the drug induced mental illness look like probably would have been looking at. You know, ECT treatment or something like that. So probably happy I didn't engage in that more medicalized. Recovery, but found found my own way through it through travel through. Obviously not smoking weed anymore. That was pretty helpful and and doing a bit of soul search around the things that were going to work for me, but most particularly were the engagement in in those secure attachments that I had with Mom and Dad. And sorry I haven't. Mentioned my older brother. As well. So he's four years older than. Than me and also the friendship groups that I am that I had at the time, which were really helpful in kind of pushing me along to finding some level of security and attachment.

Carter

Very good, I think, yeah. The the fact that you had all of those secure attachments and those relationships is certainly something that that would have been integral to your recovery. So certainly thankful to have you here in front of me today, happy, healthy and with a. Beautiful little family. Why don't you tell me a little bit about your wife? How you guys met, how you guys decided to start a family and tell us a little bit about your kids?

Mark

Yeah, absolutely. So I would have met my wife about 6-7 years ago. We were working in similar industries. I was working in a community service organisation where I was supporting young, young people with trauma. At that time I was working, I believe, as a therapeutic specialist for residential care. And my wife was working in a similar role, us supporting placements for young people in care as well. And it was kind of. One of those true. Absolutely cheesy, but love at first sight to kind of situations and I had realised that, you know, the previous relationships I had been in had had not been particularly healthy, had not been particularly secure, and similarly for my wife. Actually, her previous relationships hadn't been quite supportive to her own development. As well, and so we almost immediately clicked and and had a level of interest for each. There in essentially, after our first date we were we were just hanging every day and I was living up in in kitchen at the time she was in in Craigieburn and we were just doing the trip back and forth and kite into Craigieburn to kitten and and not long after she moved in, she moved into Kitten with us. And so we pretty much fell in love and started started that whole process. Of of getting married and having children. And now we have Julian. Julian's two years old, just over 2 years old. He's beautiful, boy. Huge spirit, huge sensitivity. Precocious, but not at the same time. And Claudia is for. Just a little over four months old now, and she's just a gorgeous, gorgeous little Angel that doesn't, that really only cries when she's struggling to sleep. So we're really lucky in terms of both our both of our kids sleep at the moment.

Carter

Very good. And how was your wifes pregnancies? They were all good. How was the mental health for the both of you specifically the fact that you guys work within the mental health industry and and huge advocates in that space. Can you share a little insight on your own personal mental health journey throughout the heightened time of pregnancy and birth?

Mark

Yeah. Look, two very different journeys in. Terms of the. The the two processes for for us on you know our our first board. I I just remember reading all of these hypnotherapy books and what's going to be our birthing plan and how are we going to do this plan and. Spending months just thinking of ways that ways that we wanted to birth Juliet and, you know, just all. It all went to ****, really. In the end, it was not at all what we had planned for. It was a healthy Cara, had a healthy birth and and it all, it all really went well and really it's very healthy. Maybe so that. Let's just say that with. Claudia, we we. Reduced all those expectations and just wanted to be present for the pregnancy and see where we went. See where we went with that in terms of preparedness, you know, are we ever prepared? I I think I I don't ever think we are. I think even from both of our in away clinical backgrounds you're moving from a process of individuation and in individual responsibility to collective. Responsibility and that in itself is such. A significant shift. As a as someone going into parenthood, you know, and from as I might answer this from a different couple of different angles as kind of as the husband as the father and then as a psychotherapist. And as a psychotherapist, I actually think that that was, for me, the biggest struggle I remember. Not long after I returned back to work, Julian would have been not far off. Six weeks, maybe 5 weeks old, and I had received a referral for a young person under 10 who had been sexually abused. From the age of, you know, five months old and had been in multiple different placements, had had such a significant trauma. History and this was stuff that. I had been very used to managing prior to the birth of my son and was kind of just part of of my role in the consultation role. With this organisation, and yet, I fell to pieces, I just absolutely fell to pieces when I I read this referral and started engaging in work with this young person because here I had this extremely vulnerable 6 week old, not far off from the age of where this other young person. You started getting sexually. Years and I I just couldn't fathom it. I couldn't imagine it. And my mental health really significantly declined for a period of time because I was having to engage with my son in his absolutely innocent way and then thinking about, you know, all all the horrors. Of the world. Of their and the impact to that poor young person's life, you know, the moment something so traumatic happens to them. It really is a complete alteration of their future perspectives and and it was hard to reconcile those two things to to see this innocence versus this just kind of destruction of innocence.

Carter

Yeah, certainly it's a. It's a strange kind of shift becoming a parent as as far as your level of empathy goes. Pre Parenthood, you'd hear about those types of stories and you'd be like oh, you know, that's that's such a shame. And you know that poor kid and it must be horrible what they've gone through. But once you become a parent and that part of your heart unlocks, it's a whole other ball game. It really is a whole other ball game. You the empathy kicks up, you know, an extra 500% and you really, really do. Physical pain for the things that these kids have endured and yeah, so I tip my hat to you for the fact that you were able to somewhat reconcile those feelings cause that wouldn't have been an easy thing to do.

Mark

Yeah. And and I, I think you're absolutely spot on that that unlocking of of the heart. I think it truly is what what happens when when you become a parent is just this abundance of love for this. For for this little child. That you're going to care for. For the rest of your life in in one way or another, and that sense of responsibility and then reconciling this, this sense of, well, how can someone else? Not have that sense of. Responsibility. How can someone else not? Want to have that level of safety for their child so that they can just be a baby? Who wants to eat, sleep, poo and and be loved and cared for? So yeah, it's it it. It you know over. Time I've gotten better at it, I've. Gotten much better? At it. But I remember that particularly for six, six months was was hard reading kind of referral after referral of of abuse and trauma.

Carter

Yeah, certainly. And what types of things did you utilise in that time for self care? Did you lean on your wife to discuss these things? Did you internalise? It or or. Did you try to kind of maintain? Somewhat of a healthy relationship with self care to kind of get through those harder times.

Mark

Yeah. Look, I I think it was a real mix of all of it. My wife is just so solid carrot, such a solid human being and also my own awareness that she was breastfeeding, you know, primary care for. For Julian and not necessarily wanting to to put what I was going through on her, but yet, you know, she she's always a fantastic debriefing space and and the other stuff was almost needing to shift my my own mindset around how I was viewing this. And you know this same maturity is to find the grade between the black and white. And that that was my own process, that it wasn't extremes and and I need to shift my thinking around, you know, the safe world and what is a safe world is that it, it can be safe and it it it is safe. Sometimes we just need to change our own engagement with our environment and our own perception of our environment to to make that mental shift.

Carter

So that that sounds like it would potentially is one of the biggest challenges you've faced in your parenting journey so far. Are you able to shed some light on some more? Challenges that you've faced as a parent, you and your wife and how you've overcome.

Mark

Yeah. Yeah. Look, I think I think Karen and I probably went through two really different processes. I I should remember, not long after Julian was born, kind of looking at Karen and thinking, oh, where do I fit in? All this you know. Eight months before Julian was born, we were, you know, or 10 months before we were hanging out, you know, having Sunday, Sunday wines and watching Netflix and going on dates and, you know, having that really emotionally intimate time and that obviously, that that shifted. That shifted. So I I needed to. I I was worried about what? What that meant for us. And because I'm such a strong proponent for. As to be a good parent, you need to maintain your own sense of self and your sense of relationship, because that is inherently what our children see. Our children experience our our anxieties. They also experience our Wellness and and so for me it was really important that that. And continue to engage in in a wholeness in our relationship, but that's not always possible when you're when when a mother is breastfeeding, when a mother is up, you know 2 * a night, 3 * a night to feed when they're exhausted. And so it was. I think that was probably the biggest shock to me around. How do we rebalance our life? And and fit fit all. This in in a way that is going to be healthy. For all of. Us. So I think that that would. Have been a really the the biggest thing for. Me on my end.

Carter

Yeah, yeah, definitely. That sense of self really. Really. It's not something that you think about too much until you've you've got a baby, you know, you've got your kind of sense of self when you're going through school and you're trying to figure out, you know, the hierarchy and what part of that spectrum you fall into. But, you know, after high school and you start your career. All of that you kind of have a pretty set life as far as who you think you are as a person goes, and then it it's not until parenthood that you start to call into question those things and the the type of parent you want to be and the type of partner you want to be. So I think it's it is. A massive shift it. It changes your life, becoming a parent in. Every single way and you start questioning yourself and start thinking about the things that you grew up seeing in your own parents and and the ideals that you've brought along with you for the ride that you've never really questioned. Until then, you start thinking about how you want to mould your child. Children and and I I really believe that you know parents that want to raise their kids as mirror images of them have it a little bit wrong you know as noble as that sounds and and you know you take pride in the way you parent I think the really really important thing is to make sure that you not only raise your kids as a. Mirror image of you but to also improve on every aspect of yourself that that you had trouble reconciling, growing up and being an adult and everything like that and ensuring that your kids are able to have that support and to make sure they kind of don't make the same mistakes that you did. You know they need to make mistakes because that's all a part of life and I think, you know, life is all about balance. You have to take the good with the bad in every sense of of the saying. But but definitely making sure that that they have access to to your emotions is a is a massive proponent of what kind of. Warrants you in being a good parent or.

Mark

Not are. Yeah, I think you touch on you, touch on so many things and things that I ponder on a lot, especially in my my practise and I believe that at times parents are so focused on. The external world that they're actually forgetting the that the simplicity of emotional availability is what your child is wanting and and I think as we're moving into a society where there are a lot of concerns, you know. Everyone's worried about. We're all worried about climate change and. We're all worried about the economy and we're all worried about, you know, how it's going to impact us. I would say though, that before you worry about buying a buying the plastic bottle of water, maybe just check that you're doing what you need to be doing for your own family, for your own Wellness, for your own sense of individuality, because it's what I often see is this desire to externalise what's happening for ourselves. So we look outwards. The problems in the world that can somehow. Help us resolve what's. I mean inwardly and that that is a struggle and I think as we move into the society where it is kind of five second engagement with videos and 10 second engagement with pop parenting, we actually lose the importance of our own resilience. And that, I believe, is the most important part, because it's not always about getting it right. In fact, it's about getting it wrong. Well, and if we can get it wrong, well, with our child children, if we can lose our temper or get frustrated. And then come to them and apologise and say I'm so I'm sorry is the most important word that any parent can utilise in their toolbox. I got this wrong. Let's work this out together because what our child does in that moment then is realise that life isn't always. About getting it. Right. Hey. So there's capacity for failure. This capacity to not be OK sometimes and be that rupture and repair processes are also possible and that builds a level of resilience and capacity between you and your child and your relationships that. That will forever be held from when they're 10 years old, 20 years old to 50 years old. But I. Think we we've. Moved into a culture and a society where failure has somehow become something. That's not OK. That, that, that. It's not OK to fail. It's not OK to try something not be good. That it that we all of a sudden have to succeed in everything we do and and we see this in social media as well. We see this in almost these click baits or two second pick. Pictures of people holidaying always in Bali or people you know, going away to to Hawaii and and these perfect relationships, but it's all. It's all just. Nothing. All those things that they don't matter, because they're just snapshots of someones individual experience that has such a level of longevity that we don't understand. And so if we think that that is our experience, we think that that is life, then I think we're attaining to things that are a not possible and B that aren't creating the level of stamina and resilience that we actually need to realistically have with our children.

Luke

Hey, guys. It's Luke here. Some of you may know me from TikTok as AKA Luke Andrew for season two of the Touched Out podcast. I'm teaming up with my good friend Carter to bring you Luke's mindful Matters where I'll be choosing a question or topic from my TikTok family and have any yarn about it on here. So if you want to ask a question. Suggested topic or have even recently posted a question that I haven't been able to answer. Jump back over to my tick tock if you haven't already pressed that follow button and shoot me a comment. Hey, guys. Welcome back to another episode of the Touched Out Podcast. Today's question comes from Amy Marie. The question itself is what type of parents did you have for you to be able to be such a supportive partner? I guess my answer or or straight off the top to that he's he's not even plural. It's parent. I only grew up in a home. With my mum and my sister, so I learned a lot from them. It's not like I I didn't have a dad. Of course I did. But he he left when I was two, which was, you know, not old enough for me to remember him being there full time. And that was on the back of a, I guess, a mutual agreement or or maybe not even a mutual agreement and understanding that maybe one of those partners was putting in more effort than the other one and the relationship broke down, which in reality I think when I think about it, it was kind of a bit of a blessing and a curse for me because I I always. Find for that for a father figure for that relationship with a male that that I didn't have, but in in the same sense I was able to learn a lot from my mum, so maybe my mind wasn't as polluted with a lot. Of with a lot of that, that's kind of like that toxic masculinity type approach. You know, like my mum and my sister were always quite open with their emotions. And I guess that flowed onto myself. And I think maybe I I was, I was into a position where I felt like I had to be the. Man of. The house sooner than I had to be. Which which enabled me to kind of tune into to what made my mum and my sister happy and how I could go about protecting them. Essentially the best that I could, you know, given that I I was only young my. 12 now wasn't like I didn't have a dad at all. He he he was when he first left would sort of travel between here and Victoria. And then when he showed up, it would be every second weekend. But I used to watch the actions that he would do that would put my mum and my sister in spots where they would get upset or it would go on to ruin their day. And I I would see them cry and I would quite often. Conversations with them sometimes probably conversations. Beyond my years, I think one of my mum's biggest regrets was allowing me to try and be the man of the house and probably treating me more like a good friend than her son. So there were conversations being had that I probably wouldn't suggest you have with a child that young, but it does force you to grow up quite quick and become quite in tune. With you know what? What was missing or what wasn't being done as far as what, what, what a good mum and daughter need in in a relationship with their with their partner and their dad. So I guess you could say I almost learnt how to treat a woman. Based on how I felt my mum needed to be treated and how I saw her. Actions or how she would feel when she was treated incorrectly. So I think I grew up with a huge respect for the women in my life. My mum and my sister are easily two of the most important and influential people in my life to date. So I have based a lot of my actions as as an as an older male around. What I I think is best I think I guess for for women in general, because I don't like to see anybody upset and I can see how the actions of some men by not being fully present for their partner and their children affects, you know, their their, their partner and and said kids. So yeah, I guess, weirdly enough, the the supportive side of me comes from seeing what I think they were missing and then telling myself when I grew up I would like to make sure I'm not a partner that allows my partner or my children to feel like. But I guess the curse side of of it being a blessing and a curse comes down to parts that I lack in my ability to to be a a good partner, a good husband, and a good dad. He's I, you know, I never had a healthy relationship, I guess, to look up to. So I never saw my dad and my mum. Going on date nights, I never saw too much affection in the home, so I never I never really saw, you know, like my my parents cuddle or kiss, or because in time, even if my mum had partners, she would probably shelter us from that because it's not something we were used to seeing. So I've chatted to my wife about this and probably like. One of my key improvement areas or somewhere I struggle with the most even though I can be very tentative to needs and my love language is, is more than likely not even more than likely it's we we figured it out. It's acts of service so that not unlike my mum making sure the home is clean. Making sure your clothes are done making sure you're fed. I ultimately I kind of excel in those areas, but when it comes to the physical side, like cuddling all the time, giving kisses, making sure we go on date nights, I I I certainly struggle in those areas because I guess I never had anything to base it off. So growing up for me that part. But wasn't something I was super familiar with, so I think you know when you're looking at being a supportive partner, I definitely supportive to like I I I think I believe emotional needs and then things around the House that need doing. But there's other areas that suffer based on you know me modelling these things off. My mum and and my sister, I guess so there's there's definitely ups and downs to that supportive side, but at the end of the day, again short answer to the question is the type of parents I had was a mum that was very hands on that came to all my football games. She even coached at. Team and did her very best. Worked her absolute ******* **** off to make sure that we we were given all the all the standard needs as a child and some when it came to emotional support, Cuddles from your mum, she'd tell you. You know she loves you every day. I know that at night time my sister had her room. I had mine and my mum. My nerves and we'd all yell out from bed. It'll be good night, mum. You get a good night back. See you in the morning. See you in the morning, love you. And I love you back. It's taking me back a little bit too, I guess. Every, every night we would always let each other know. We're gonna see each other in the morning and and we loved each other. So we were always there for each other in that sense, you know? But but the other part of it is, I I had a dad that wasn't as present as. He should have been. So I I grew up more in tune with the woman side. But in that sense, it's probably easy to overlook some of your own needs as well, because you're you're you're too busy trying to make sure. That you know, if you love language as access service at the the people in your home are all taken care and looked after without trying to overlook the rest of it. But the rest of it can can cause issues too if not done right. That's a good question, Amy. Thank you. I'm gonna wrap that one up there. But I I think I've I've tried to answer that one as best. I could again. If you guys have any questions that you'd like answered on here or or topic suggested, jump back over to my TikTok and and let me know in the comments section and I'll try to get to them. Cheers guys, much love.

Carter

Yeah, 100%. I talk a lot about the importance of saying sorry to your kids on the podcasts over the last couple of episodes. I think I think it is incredibly important, especially as someone who I do lose my temper as much as I, you know, hate to admit it. And I wouldn't say I'm ashamed because I'm sure everyone is quite the same. You know, I lose my temper. And I get a little bit yelly sometimes, but I always, always will sit down with my kids afterwards. And apologise to them and tell them why I did this and what can we do in the future to try to make sure that when tempers become raised, are we able to kind of have a sit down and have a chat before it gets to that stage. And I'm really trying to kind of teach them. A level of emotional intelligence that wasn't available to a lot of us in, you know, this generation or the generations before and and whatnot. So I think it's, yeah, incredibly important. You know, I'm still getting it wrong and that's totally fine because parenting isn't perfect. Just like anything in life. And you know, as you said, those kind of life curations that you see online as beautiful as they are to watch, they are, they can be quite damaging to your own mental health. But I also have started teaching my kids. The importance of not worrying about what's on other people's plates. If you've got food on your plate. You don't need to worry about what's on anyone else's plate, because what's on your plate is what matters. And and that's very fundamental to them. I think in terms of reconciling their feelings of jealousy and all of those types of emotions where you compare your yourself to others and. That's, you know, a massive, massive issue in in schooling that was a massive issue with me. You know, I I came from a low to middle class family, so I never got like brand clothes or like, I never was. Able to have the coolest fashion I still remember my mum. I begged her and begged her for a pair of jeans. So back in the early late 90s, early 2000s, there was a a pair of jeans called 26 Reds and they were. They were the the the Go man and they were so so baggy. But that was that was what everyone was wearing. You know, we had like that hip hop culture in our school and I begged her and begged her for months and months to buy me these, these jeans, and she finally, finally. And I was so excited. I was like, yes, I'm finally going to belong, you know, I'm going to be a part of this, this culture. And I was so excited. And come Monday I go to put my 26 Reds on and she'd taken them up. So they then resembled like 70s squares and like, God bless her, she was just trying to do me a favour. But it really, really kind of goes to show like the level of emotional intelligence. In in my mother and she just could not fathom or understand the the fact that they are baggy is what made them so popular, and she was just trying to help. But she absolutely ruined my life. And then I refused to wear them and her and I had this massive fight. And she's like, I just spent $100 on these bloody jeans. You've begged me for months. And I'm like, you've ruined them. I'm not wearing them. Not gonna gonna look like someone out of bloody boogie nights. It's not happening.

Speaker

I love it. What a game changer.

Carter

So it's. Yeah, it was horrible. Dude, I was so heartbroken. But you know, we live. We learn. She never quite learned she was. She was very, very high strung. My mum. Yeah. And she always kind of thought what? What she knew was absolutely the best. And she was never really willing to to compromise and kind of listen to to me and and my thoughts and my ideas.

Mark

And it speaks to that importance, man of that relationality the importance of engaging from a deeply relational place with your child. You know, we hear a lot about gentle parenting and the like. And. And I think there is a massive distinction between gentle parenting and unbounded parenting. And you know, same thing. If we think of therapeutic care and the concept of therapeutic care, a lot of people get confused with it is. They a lot. Of people believe that therapeutic care is about. Allowing being permissive that whatever happens is going to happen and we're just always there without boundary. Without direction, those things therapeutic care cannot exist because all that child then has is is is an unbounded experience of themselves. And the world around them, so that safety then becomes unsafe, despite it being what that person wants at the time. And so there's absolutely nothing wrong with firmness, direction, clarity and not giving in because the world. It's sometimes unforgiving in itself, and So what we do in those moments when you know a child is having a tantrum, it just happened yesterday where Julian was he wanted to read a book again, for for like the 20th time before bed and the last time I'd read it. I said all right. Mate, so I'll read it one more time and this is the last one. For the day, OK. Yeah, OK, OK. So I. And he was. Like again, again, again. And it was the. Largest the largest Fenty that he's ever had, but I had a choice point there, and my choice point was I could probably make things easier by just reading it again and hoping that he just because he'll often take himself to bed and say, OK, you need time time to go to sleep, and maybe that one extra time if I read it, he would have, but. We needed to draw Karen and I needed to really draw boundary in that point, which is in a way, a bit. Of a a life lesson that is well. No, actually, we've agreed to this. I will sit with you while you have your tantrum. I will be there with you while you're frustrated and.

Speaker

****** *** with us.

Mark

And all of that's OK. I'm not going to read. The book. Again. And so you do what you need to do, because now it's bedtime. But we're. Not going to put. You to bed crying, so we'll hold that space. So the compromise. Came to after you know, a 10 minute tantrum was take the book to bed and we'll read it tomorrow morning. And that was that. Was fine, but there's so many little. Nuance processes there. And I see why people. I get it. I get why people just, like, get exhausted cause it is exhausting. It's exhausting when you're having a simple battle all the time. And it's not just a simple battle. It's multiple simple battles all the time. So. So I understand that fatigue. But just when we have the capacity, I would say this. When we have the. Capacity to make that choice point and make that differentiation, it is absolutely. And to the point of gentle parenting, we're not going to break our child by putting really strong boundaries in place and allowing them to have a tantrum and allowing them to engage in self saving. I can tell you that from a clinical psychotherapist perspective, that not only are we not going to break our child, but we're actually going to make them a better human being. If I think of the journey of parenting what our role really is is to make our child and then I. Know this sounds. A little bit wild, but I firmly believe it to make our child as desirable and interesting and likeable to other people. Because that is where our children get seen. They become light, they feel engaged in a world that is safe out there, and they get brought into things and not necessarily myself or my wife, will might be able to bring them in. That's how they. Learn new skills. And so if. There is one role that I think of myself as a parent. If I have one role is to make my child likeable, make my child engageable, make my child kind and friendly, but also.

Carter

Yeah, definitely. I think those, those tiny little parenting points, you know where you have that, that fork in the road, do you think I can take the easy way out and live in harmony with a happy kid, even though I'm reading this book 20 ******* times and it's doing my head in or I can kind of make a stand and use this as. The teaching point for them, that's super, super important for later in. Life and you. Know you touch on these things will not only make your child likeable in future, but I think it's very, very important. And not only for them to be liked by others, but to like themselves. I think that's the majority of it. You know, you you want to raise someone who's going to be confident and understand boundaries and not only boundaries to the outside world, but internalised boundaries, you know their their own bodies, you know, we there's a. Or I don't? Know if it's a band, it's like a children's a children's band called the Teeny Tiny Stevies, and they do a song called The Boss of my own body. And we have been playing that song to our kids and talking about their own bodies and how they are the boss of their own bodies from a really young age and, you know, things, things like any sort of modifications to their bodies, their haircuts and the way in which they dress. We leave by and large up to our own children, you know, so long as. They're making the right clothing choices for the weather. That's pretty much where we draw the line with our involvement. You know, we we kind of we touched on getting my son circumcised when he was born and because we'd already had our daughter and we discussed getting her ears pierced as a baby because then you know she grew up, she wouldn't remember the pain or anything like that. But we decided against it because we thought it would be an really important teaching moment for her when she was old enough to make that decision. Herself and understand that there is going to be pain involved in some. Thing, and there's something quite beautiful about, you know, going through some pain to have something beautiful on the other end, you know, like ear piercings or something like that. You know, I think that's really, really important for kids to understand that sometimes you have to get dragged through the mud or eat a bit of **** to kind of get to that price on the other end. So, you know, obviously, we decided not to do the. List is and Hendrix has been discussing it lately and wanting to get her ears pierced, but we've sold her. You know it's gonna hurt. So she's decided against getting her ears pierced for now. But you know, we came to that same conclusion with the whole circumcision with my son. We were like, well, if we're not willing to get our daughters ears. List because we want her to be the boss of her own body. Then you know we can't. Kind of can't do a circumcision on my son purely for the the one kind of reason we wanted to was because Dad's circumcised and you know that would I've, you know, never had to kind of deal with the anatomy of an uncircumcised penis. So. Yeah, there it. It just wasn't a good enough reason to go ahead with. It, and I think that's all very very import. Warden, you discussed the concept of gentle parenting. And it's quite a polarising topic in in the parenting space at the moment, and I think it's one that's the definition of which is really, really blurred, because my definition of gentle parenting is what you see on the curated Tik Toks and Instagram. And just all of the positive things that that come from gentle parenting. And it made it seem like, yeah, it was a little bit. Like no boundaries and you're by and large, allowing your children to raise themselves. But a previous podcast recording that I had had we discussed gentle parenting with a a beautiful lady named Fiona. She she was great. It was a great conversation. And she basically said that I'm a gentle parent and I kind of took a step back and I was like, oh, I mean, I would have never thought of myself as a gentle. Parent, but she said. You know, the fact in which. You are allowing yourself to lose your temper and then being kind to yourself in the aftermath of that, and then sitting your children down and discussing what happened and why, and allowing yourself to be emotionally vulnerable and emotionally available with your children. That is gentle parenting, and that is amazing. So that's that conversation. Has really changed the way in which I look at gentle parenting as a whole and the definition of it and. I think that's. Something that a lot of parents that are kind of in the trenches with everything right now need to hear more of. I think they need a. More realistic. Definition of gentle parenting. So why don't you tell me what your definition of gentle parenting is and how it applies to your parenting style?

Mark

Yeah. Look, I I think everything completely agree with everything you've said. I I do believe that gentle parenting is giving yourself permission to get it wrong. It's giving yourself permission to not always be on your best game. I think it's around, you know, achieving a level of patience when we can and and you know, when I'm whenever I'm parenting, I'm thinking of how is Julian and Claudia perceiving me, you know? So I'm always thinking. From the perspective of a child. You know, and and when I think of. You know that. Let's imagine someone comes into your house, takes your keys to your car, drives your car out of the driveway. You wouldn't be happy. In fact, you'd be pretty livid. You'd be calling the police. You'd be really angry, and you would want people to know about it. What is the difference then? Or a year and a half old trial where when they're playing another kid, takes their car out of their heads and they have, like, a complete flip out. And so because they're executive thinking isn't on board because they're processing isn't on board. I actually don't see a difference and that's the perspective that I think of parenting from. Is I need to think of what my capacity is if something is happening to me that which is equal to their capacity and so of course you know my car being stolen might be, might be a bit of a different. But what might my young person need in that moment? And sometimes it is just a boundary. It's OK, you know, I've heard you. That's enough. Now. Time to move on. And having that really clear direction, it is not about sitting in. An emotion for hours on end so that it could be so it could be constantly and consistently expressed because what that does to us then is that we're getting frustrated and we're getting annoyed. And yet we're doing it in the service. Of whom? Because it's not in the service of our child, it's in the service of an idea to our child. Because when we're frustrated, we're actually not servicing our child. They're sensing our anxiety. They're sensing our irritation and they're sensing to your point before. That they're may be unlikable to you, that you're annoying, that they are annoying you. And so if our goal is to make a lovable child that they need to experience differential. And that differentiation comes from a boundaried approach and a kind and loving approach. You know, we come with our best foot forward and try and engage them where they're at and we pick our battles, you know, this morning, little fellow was Julian was like, hey, you know, first thing in the morning is we picked every morning, sat down and made and we picked and then he was like. Bubbles. So he wanted rice bubbles instead. So I. Was, but let's give it. A couple of rice bubbles and then. He wanted banana and I was like. I'll give you a banana because I was like. Rushing, you know in. My mind I. Was rushing but. There was a choice point from there, right? If you wanted anything else I was like, that's it. I'm like, they pick something of the three that you've had because now I'm done. I've got to go to work. I've got to do this podcast now. We need to move on, and you need to have the experience. That that's that's enough. Well, yeah, she. Ended up eating all of it so. That was pretty cool. But he may not have, and if we choose to get frustrated in those moments, we're also not in service of our child either. And so we just need to be conscious, I guess for me, gentle parenting is having a level of flexibility where we actually don't make it about us, but we're conscious of how we're feeling. Does that make sense in terms of distinction?

Carter

Yeah, flexible boundaries, but boundaries nonetheless.

Mark

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, like you know.

Carter

Yeah, I I totally agree.

Speaker

When it's time to go to.

Mark

Bed. It's time to go to bed. And that's just the reality.

Speaker

I'm not going.

Mark

To fiddle around for an hour and a half when bedtime 730, you've got that you've got that window. That time frame from 7:25 to 7:40, and that's a cool enough level of flexibility because you know what? I also want to resource myself when you're in bed so that I could be the best parent I can be the next day and that. Means that I need to. And well, that evening as well, yeah.

Carter

Yeah, definitely. I have that issue with my daughter at the moment surrounding bedtime. She'll she'll really, really push it as far as she possibly can. And then she'll get out of bed, you know, 5-10 times a night. But we've implemented kind of almost like a three strike policy. You know, if if you continue to get out of bed, these are the punishments that you'll you can expect, you know, you may. You may have to go sit in the corner and reset. I'll come sit in the corner with you and once you've reset and you're. Kind of more of a baseline and more receptable to that conversation we've got in our like timeout corner. It's our hallway, but I've got emotion charts up so we can have a discussion about, you know, how she's feeling. She'll point to angry or sad. Or, you know any of those types of things. And then we've got a list of actions that she can take to mitigate that emotional response. So, you know, if she's feeling angry, go to your room and scream into your pillow as loud as you.

Mark

Absolutely, yeah.

Carter

Want go go nuts. Do do what you need to do and I I really do. I make sure that there. Is a mixture of. Of her being alone and processing, processing her own emotions mixed with me being there or my wife being there and being present and and sharing in that emotional journey with her to make sure that she can rely on us or they can rely on us to come to us in those times of need as well. But I think there does need to be yet again balance I think. Balance is really the biggest key balance and flexibility.

Mark

What 100% and? I really I I get this sense that we have, we feel like we have more of a responsibility to each other as parents and we actually do to our own children sometimes. And that is, I think what needs to shift a little bit more that everyone's going to find their way and there is no. There, there is no absolute way of raising a child, because if we're not making mistakes along the way that we're not teaching them. So yeah. That, that, that, that. Flexibility and that self engagement that self awareness is completely crucial to our own children's development.

Carter

100. Then Mark, I think you have a appointment in like 5 minutes. So is there anything else you want to add and we'll wrap this up for you, mate.

Mark

Now look, I I think you know there's heaps of stuff that that I think we could probably talk about in terms of environment and down down the road, but now it's been an absolute pleasure to to catch up with. You and share share our stories together and.

Carter

Yeah. Thanks so much, Mark. Luckily, you are living the next town over and we will be catching up for some beers at some time in the near future, which I'm very, very excited for. So we'll be in touch soon, mate, but yeah, thank you for your time today and enjoy the rest of.

Mark

Your day. Thanks so much. Thank.