Breaking Stigmas | ADHD | Autism | Innovative Sensory Solutions with Jo from Kaiko Fidgets

Welcome to Episode 16 The Touched Out! A Mental Health Podcast for Parents.

I'm your host, Carter, and today, we're diving into the fascinating and often misunderstood dynamics of ADHD and Autism in our society.

Meet Jo, the mother of Kai and Kobe. Kai, a brilliant young mind, founded Kaiko at just 11 years old in 2017. Kaiko was created to provide age-appropriate sensory solutions and fidget toys, born out of Kai's personal experiences with dyslexia and autism. These sensory solutions have significantly boosted his confidence and mental well-being.

Challenging Stigmas Around Autism

In our conversation, Jo and I discuss the negative stigma often associated with Autism and how it impacts late diagnoses. We delve into Kai's mental health journey and how his struggles led to the creation of Kaiko.

The Growth of Kaiko

Starting at local markets, Kaiko has now expanded to over 120 stockists. They focus on creating needs-based tools designed to replace non-suicidal self-harm practices. We explore the difference between self-harm as a coping mechanism for sensory overload and using tools like wrist and finger spiky's to provide non-harmful pain relief.

The Importance of Wearable Fidgets

Wearable fidgets offer individuals immediate sensory relief. Jo and I emphasize the importance of having these tools readily available, discussing how they can improve daily life for those with sensory needs.

Neurodiversity, Gender Fluidity, and Body Modification

Drawing from personal experiences, I share my history with self-harm and masking behaviors. We discuss the strong overlap between neurodiversity and gender fluidity, theorizing a potential connection between body modification and neurodiversity.

Powerful Insights and Continued Conversations

Thank you for joining us on this insightful episode. Let's continue to break down stigmas and explore innovative ways to support our neurodiverse community. Stay tuned for more engaging discussions.

Explore Kaiko's Range

You can browse and purchase Kaiko’s extensive range at Kaiko Fidgets. Head to the podcast Instagram and hit the bio link to sign up for preorder today.

Chapters

• 0:00 The Journey of Self-Understanding and Acceptance
• 3:27 The Benefits of Age-Appropriate Sensory Solutions
• 6:18 Exploring Pain and Self-Harm in Non-Harmful Ways
• 8:03 Self-Compassion and Kindness Towards Oneself
• 12:25 The Need for Evolution in the Education System
• 16:18 Recognizing and Connecting with the Neurodiverse Community
• 17:37 Running a Business in the Neurodiverse Community
• 19:30 Overcoming Stigma and Shame through Empowerment
• 25:57 Supporting Neurodiverse Individuals in the Justice System
• 28:49 Creating a Safe and Inclusive Environment
• 34:22 Dealing with Urges and Avoiding Triggers
• 39:35 Kai's Autism Diagnosis and Self-Harm
• 48:36 Innovative Sensory Tools for Pain without Harm
• 57:08 The Effectiveness of Chewing Gum as a Sensory Tool

Transcript

We would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of this land. We pay our respects to the elders, past, present and emerging, but they hold the memories, the traditions and the culture of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people across the nation.

Carter

Warning this podcast contains explicit language and discusses sensitive topics related to mental health, childhood trauma, birth, trauma, abuse, miscarriage, and suicide. Listener discretion is advised. If you find these subjects distressing or triggering, we recommend taking caution and considering whether to proceed with. Listening. If you or someone you know is struggling, please reach out to a mental health professional or a trusted individual for support. Your well being is our priority. Welcome to the Season 2 premiere of the Touched Out Podcast. My guest today is Joe, the mother of Kai and Kobe from Tarneit, Victoria. Joe is the co-founder of Kaiko fidgets, an online sensory store established to create age, appropriate sensory solutions and fidget toys. Joe and I discussed many insightful topics today, including the shock and acceptance of Joe receiving an autism. And ADHD diagnosis later in life. We discuss her son, Kai's dyslexia and autism, and how his negative experiences in school led to the creation of Kaiko fidgets, amongst many other things. We speak about the benefits of sensory solutions when it comes to self harm and ways in which Keiko's creations can provide other avenues to explore pain in non harmful ways. The work that Joe, Kai and their entire family are doing is. Absolutely incredible and I am truly honoured to support Keiko in releasing this episode as well as partnering with Keiko, you'll hear Keiko ads running throughout season two of the podcast, so go to keikofidgets.com and pick yourself up some absolutely incredible products and get your stim on today. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Hit like and share on the podcast platform of your choice so the podcast can continue to find its way into the ears of new listeners. You can also find us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and YouTube at Touched Out Podcast for those who wish to support the show in other ways, you can also donate via PayPal. You can find social media and donation links as well as information from today's episode. In the episode description, thank you for being part of my podcast family. Let's keep this journey going together.

Jo

No. So. From is. Right here. Time it's alright. Take some. All night. It's all good.

Carter

Today we have Joe Joe's from Tarneit. She is. The owner of the Clayco. Fidgets and an online sensory store who specialises in fidget toys for teens. And. Adults. Is that right?

Jo

That's correct. Thanks so much for having me, Father.

Carter

Thank you so much for coming on. I myself have purchased a couple of things from your website. So it was really cool to reach out and connect with you and learn a little bit more about your background. So Joe, you are ADHD and autistic as well, is that right?

Jo

Yeah, that's correct. I was late identified. Clearly that's that's a journey of self understanding. But last year I went through the processes like so many parents. I think you I've discovered my own neuro spiciness through the process of uncovering and unpacking that for my children. Because I am just who I am, I just thought that was who, everybody. 'S like. Yeah. Do you know? What I mean, I it just felt. Like that's. I didn't identify that there was anything different about the way my brain worked to anyone else, as I just thought everyone else had. 10 conversations going on in their head at all given times.

Carter

Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. So you you've how many children have you got?

Jo

I've got 2.

Carter

Two and both on the spectrum or.

Jo

Yes. Yeah, both babies are politically crackled, and maybe with a lot they've got dyslexia. They are autistic and also ADHD.

Carter

Yeah, no. It's it's. Yeah, it's a it's a good. Bundle to have. So if you don't mind me asking, it's an incredibly. Rude question to ask a woman, but.

Jo

OK guys.

Carter

How old are you? Sorry.

Jo

Ohh no, that's fine. Being a neurodiverse, I love oversharing, if that's. All you've got. To throw at me. Oh, we're good. I'm 51.

Carter

51 So you were diagnosed at 50. Wow. So that, I mean, that's amazing. First of all, I was diagnosed 12 months ago at 35, and I found it an absolute struggle to comprehend or come to terms.

Jo

That's correct. Yeah. Yeah.

Carter

With, it really took a big hit on my mental health.

Jo

Ohh it's so good. To hear you say that, I literally, I knew that the. As I as. Perimenopause, or menopause, started to sort of said. You know, I knew that things were getting a little bit more out of control for myself and I needed to have the conversation with my GP around I I was really confident. I was ADHD. I'd been, I guess for later part of my adult life, and I tried to convince him to give me meds to support me without the assessment. I'm like, yeah, no, I. I no, no. No, I am. And he's like, no, no, no. You need to go through the process. So when I went through the assessment process and they told me I was autistic as. Well, and having been through that journey with my boys, I I was so shocked. It was it exactly that I, you know, to me it hasn't changed who I am, but I actually hopped off the phone and I I was sick. Literally physically sick. Not because I was upset about it, but just because I think for me it felt like. All the layers of masking just instantly fell away, and all of a sudden I was left with grappling with.

Carter

Who you are.

Jo

Yeah. And. And people say, well, how does it change you? It's changed everything.

Carter

Yeah, I had to relearn who I was. So like, like from the ground up? I my unmasking happened after I started my ADHD meds and that levelled out my ADHD. And then all of the autistic traits like came to the surface. So I was, I wasn't diagnosed autistic at the same time. It was a few months after. But like I was having.

Jo

Right.

Carter

Like full, full on meltdowns and stuff. And I was like ohh this is the medication that's doing this. Obviously, you know, like the stimulants aren't helping me, but I. Quickly realised that it. Was levelling out all of the ADH? And then all the autism was coming to play and, you know, popping up. So then all of a. Sudden I was like, I don't. Know who I am, I. Don't know what I like like I mean, my entire life has just been me kind. Of adopting traits and personalities from different people that I admired, or different TV personalities or movies or anything like that, and I, you know, I realised that 90% of the conversations I was having was. Probably like movie quotes.

Jo

And even you start to like for me now that I understand, like, you know, I I I don't like the term rejection sensitive dysphoria like it's just the most for me. I find it like it it hurts me to the core but I understand that that if that's what you. Wanna call it not? You but like if. That's what they want to call it. I definitely am that so. Am I even a nice person or? Do I just operate out of? A severe fear of not being liked, so therefore I appear nice, but maybe I'm not even nice. Yeah, like all those questions you have with yourself and I.

Carter

Yeah, yeah, it's a real tough one.

Jo

Just and. And and we were talking about it just before. I find that the autistic self and the ADHD. Self fight like they they're not friends, often in. And I find that it's a constant battle. Often, ADHD tends to win most most times.

Carter

Yeah, the the two things that I find clash most is my executive function skills, which is the ADHD side and my need for creativity, which is the autistic side. So like I'll be I'll be couch locked and just scrolling TikTok for four hours and my entire body is tingling with like just this need to get up and do something. And be creative and have that outlet. Which for the most part this podcast is is tickling that itch or scratching that it's not tickling, scratching that itch perfectly. You can tickle. The itch. Whatever.

Jo

Love it.

Carter

But yeah, even this morning, like I went to a kids birthday party yesterday and just for two hours out of the house with other people. I this morning I woke up and. I'm like, oh, I've got a. Podcast episode today I just wanna sleep and that's nothing to do with you. And I'm really, really like once I'm on here, I'm on here and.

Jo

No, no, no.

Carter

I'm really glad, but my entire body. Was like, don't do it, don't do it.

Jo

100% I had to. Speak last week at a Expo and like such an honour and like you know, I I was very appreciative of the invitation to talk. But exactly that like that, that, that night I still had 11:00. The open men hadn't kicked in. I hadn't prepared like. And for most people they would just say that's ridiculous. That you have, you're going on stage tomorrow and you haven't prepared. And it's 11:00 that night. I'm like no, but. But it's funny. Now, but now that I understand more of who I am, I was actually not panicked because I I just knew I had to wait. For the day, for me to kick in, and when when that. Panic kicked in. The dopamine was there and. Performance is, you know, on point, you know. And it all. Comes perfectly and.

Carter

Yeah, that's it.

Jo

And I'm less panicked about it, so I guess I'll probably the one thing I've found about understanding how I'm wired is I'm a lot kinder to my to myself, I'm not. So critical when I'm doing the things that are unhelpful and I go well. You know I. I I understand that rather than think come. On adult or you're being lazy or. You're, you know, pull it together. You're an intelligent human and you. Can you can? Do this. It's like. Well, actually, no, right. Now I can't.

Carter

Yeah, I'm still grappling with that. I'm still very much like, I understand that this is the autism, but also don't use that as an excuse. So, so, but yeah, so I'm, I'm still very critical of myself and I'm still kind of a bit of a bully to myself to try and make myself do things and.

Jo

100%.

Carter

And whatnot, but it's. Something that I do work on.

Jo

Yeah. No, it is A and I would say I'm still working on it too, but I am. I was probably more of a bully and I probably put myself at risk and my mental health at risk because I would force myself in some situations to push past. Usually when it's, you know, something that I'm required to do, I absolutely. Get there but. There's things that I I don't know whether it's a neurodiverse thing or just a me. Thing but I. I overcommit and wanna fix everybody's everything and do everything for everybody. And sometimes I just need to learn to have, you know, say no.

Carter

Yeah, I'm definitely the same. You. You're always showing up for everyone else that you kind of forget about. Yourself a little bit, yeah, yeah. And I don't know if that's just a part of me avoiding my own stuff and being like, well, it's easier to focus on other people's things and fix their problems instead of, you know, having to search within myself and do a little bit of self healing or self.

Jo

Ohh my God, I feel like I'm talking to my male self. It's so interesting that. When we actually get to have conversations with one another, you kind of go ohh.

Carter

Yeah, it's. It's weird to have those shared experiences that you think are just uniquely yours.

Jo

Yeah, yeah. Or the the things that are not OK about yourself. But when you hear that it is a shared experience and that that it's common within amongst your neurokinin. You kind of go ah. I I love now I find I totally gravitate to neuro spicy people. Like I almost just. You know that's. That's who I want to spend all my time with because it just makes me and. When we talk over each. Other and, you know, shared other experiences to match. No one feels not validated or. Interrupted. It's just this beautiful, chaotic conversation, which I love.

Carter

Chaotic Symphony. Yeah, no, it's it's awesome to to have that, that community at your disposal. I'm still very, very much a a a lone wolf. I quite enjoy my alone time. But my wife is also quite neurodiverse. We haven't had her.

Jo

Yes, I love it.

Carter

Tested as of yet she is ADHD. She's been on meds a couple of months, but yeah, definitely the autism is is prevalent, but also on top of that my 2 year old son's got autism so his. So it was yeah. He was diagnosed and then I was diagnosed shortly after after we realised that.

Jo

Right.

Carter

Him and I are quite alike.

Jo

Yeah. Is it is, it's. A story I hear. Yeah, almost daily. The journey of parents. Self understanding. Mm-hmm. And it's so funny because my my husband is the only one he will proudly say. He's the only one in the family that. Is non diagnosed. Yet he is definitely like the apple of the tree Mike and Kai. So my eldest son Kai. Who's actually the? Co founder or founder? Of clico fidgets. He's he's autistic and it and and Mike and Kyle's almost identical. Every way and yeah. Mike's like. No, no, no, I'm. Not, but yeah, we we. Joke. He's the most autistic.

Carter

Yeah, I've I've had a discussion with one of my previous guests about how it's once you're in the community, like if you've got a child with autism or you're autistic yourself, how easy it is to pick out other autistic people. And your husband just jumped on before we started recording. To do a little bit of IT and a. Little bit of troubleshooting for the recording. And as soon as I saw him, I. Was like, Oh yeah. Ohh yeah. So, so autistic.

Jo

You know what? It wasn't until I couldn't even tell people. It's kind of like a superpower. You just spot neurodiverse people in in, in less than a second. Like literally in that first moment you recognise and I used to think. I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but anyway, you can edit it. I used to think I was such an ******* that I before I was diagnosed. Who did I think I am? I I mean, I am an occupational therapist, but I'm not trained to assess people. But I'd be talking to people think. Ohh, definitely neurodiverse. In my head, not out loud. Which is a miracle given. My lack of philtre generally. But I think and now that. I understand myself and my own neurodiversity, and we do we we very much can. I think we just. It's like a superpower.

Carter

Yeah, it's like a gaydar, but for autism.

Jo

Yes, yes, I love it. That's a. That's a way of describing it.

Carter

Yeah. Yeah, it's it's very funny. So like my wife and I will go out and we'll, you know, if we have a conversation with someone in the community or something, we'll come home. We'll be like, didn't make eye contact at all. Actively avoided making eye contact was picking at their fingers that when they walked away, they were stepping on their toes like, etcetera, etcetera. Start listing off all of these markers. We're like that was so autistic. It's it's. Yeah, it's really quite funny to to see. And it makes you really understand just how prevalent autism is and how much of A spectrum it really is. I think we are getting a greater understanding of it in today's society. But yeah, it's still a. Long way to. Go. It's autism's. Quite a dirty word.

Jo

Yeah, I I and I think we're, I think we're seeing that morphing change like for me and it's interesting I it initially like it was funny. I was diagnosed and I shared with, you know, a few people close to me as I was. Sort of unpacking it on my. Self and I had one. I had a couple of neurotypical friends say things like ohh you're not autistic. I work with autistic people. You're definitely not autistic, and I had even worse things said to me. And so then I went underground and I didn't want to talk about it with anyone because I thought, my goodness, I'm not faking this. So one person actually said, I think like you just wanna be autistic. To help kaiko and like that. Really rocked me like that. Yeah, that would have had. I could almost not. I almost can't say that out loud and. Then I just felt like, well, I. Don't wanna tell anyone. I'm autistic because I don't want people. To think that I'm trying to somehow benefit our business. Like I don't like. Our son, daughter and he's the co-founder. Literally the business exists because of him and his desperate need to find age appropriate sensory solutions that we couldn't get anywhere. So we started making them for him. It wasn't even meant to be a business. It was, you know, just an accidental. We started making them for Kai. Then we started to. Yeah, he took them to school instead of being teased for the ones he was using. Kids wanted to hang, you know, play with them. And so we thought, ohh, it might take a few years. Widgets to little craft markets. Yeah, just the little community. You know, events. Yeah. Yeah. And we just took Kyle along to those cause and really as a mum. So Kyle's mental health was really challenged most days. He told me he didn't want to live. And, you know, we had psychology. We did. We're doing OT speech. We were doing all the things.

Carter

Like the Sunday markets kind of thing.

Jo

That we could. Do to try and support Kai, but. He just felt. You know, socially, he tanked. His core strength was poor, so he didn't do well at sports, and academically he was so significantly disliked sick that he was so far away. From where his peers. Were at even from grade. That he just felt that nothing. So no matter how much we told him his parents, he was amazing and beautiful. And, you know, perfectly wired he felt. That like everything. Around him told him no, that's not actually true. You're just my parents. And so he constantly shared that. He didn't feel like he wanted to be here. And life was too hard. And this is like he was little. And then we, so I thought I'd take him to markets and just sort of help him with his social skills and just connecting with people. And I did not. Have any understanding? How literally that would change his life. It wasn't the selling of things that had. Nothing to do. With the for the first time in his. Life people are saying. This is awesome mate. These are great and. Then they'll come. Back next market and buy more and say ohh my goodness, I'll stop picking my fingernails because I've been using your fidgets or my son is now able to concentrate in class. Ohh my son now doesn't feel. And so he was hearing in stereo. People tell him that what he was doing was amazing and good. And thank you and so proud or kids were coming to take photos with him. You know, he was sort of becoming a little kind of almost like a mini not celebrity, but a little mini.

Carter

Community figure.

Jo

Yeah, and. And and kids were being inspired and talk to him. Kids were making their own little fidgets and bringing and showing Kai. And so I watched his self esteem completely change. Like, for all the things that we tried to do that were kind of the typical. Things it was actually this accidental little desperate. Like, really, it was as he came home one day crying from school when he was being teased. Kids were saying go play with the prep sheet using toys. And I just. Thought little monkeys? Probably a little bit. More graphic than. That, you know, Kyle, what would you feel comfortable using? Let's come up with a solution. That makes you. Feel less? Embarrassed and I had just. Had no understanding of where it was about to. Take us. And so seeing Kai, you know, self esteem improved we then. I looked for because I knew like as you experienced this morning, before we hopped on to the podcast. I'm not good at tech. I'm I'm actually beyond clueless. And so I looked for a kid, some sort of mentoring programme that would teach us how to do some basics so that we could set him up a little online business. As well, and we did a kids in business mentoring programme. That was a 12 month thing that taught. Us how to make a website and register a domain and do all those things and literally had no idea that it was. It was just, you know, something we did for Kai and his his mental health. And as it sort of it and then it became it'll be an alternative option for him because school isn't going to define what he does in life. That's so far from what's gonna be the marker for him. And and and and. Nor should it be, I think, for those that look, it just doesn't fit for so many, particularly our neurodiverse.

Carter

I think the entire education system is very, very lacking in a lot of lot of different places. And I think that they have not updated how they work in terms of being in the technological age. It's all well and good to just implement like tablets and do online learning and stuff, but there's so much more that you need to do. You know when we've got AI websites that can write entire essays for us. Now, we don't need to know the things that they're trying to teach us because we have a little thing in our pockets that will tell us the.

Jo

100%.

Carter

Answer so they they need to evolve, school needs to evolve with. The times and it and it hasn't and.

Jo

No way.

Carter

And it's unfortunate, but it is what it is, I think. I think majority of schools need to implement life learning.

Jo

I know.

Carter

How do you how to do your taxes? How to clean? How to cook?

Jo

How to apply for? A job. How?

Carter

How to apply for a? Job, yeah.

Jo

To deal with. Conflict work in Group, yeah.

Carter

How to how to write a resume? Resume. Yeah. Emotional intelligence 101.

Jo

Yes, yes.

Carter

They need. There needs to be a class every week, which is just therapy because you know, let's work out our minds as much as we work out our bodies doing sports. I think that's 10 times more important, not more important, but at least on par with, you know, being physically active. Yep. Yeah. So school is very, very lacking. So anyway, back to Kai Kai.

Jo

100%.

Carter

So when did Keiko fidgets begin?

Jo

So Kai was 11 1/2 the he was 11 1/2 when he made his very first fidget with. And that was hilarious. Who? Googled so he said he wants to make something out of metal, so we sort of got a. Whole heap of. Metal things including bike chains and Googled well. How do we? Take grease off so it. Says, use kero. Can I tell? You that Cairo is not a very nice sensory experience when you use it to degrease James.

Carter

No, it's not. It's definitely not.

Jo

No, no, no. So some of our. All these things were epic fails. For care. But anyway we. We, we we came up with alternative solutions for doing that and so yeah, it really was very much I think it was 2017. He was 11 1/2 and he made his first budget that really was just for himself. We had no plan, no thought outside of we're just coming up with. Some things for Kai. Because we just couldn't find anything. Everything was toys are repurposed to sensory tools and even now. Like it, it's funny because we're so engrossed. In sensory products that are suitable. For teens and adults that we don't, we forget that. The the majority of people and the. Majority of the world have. No understanding that there are actually tools out there. There that are different to the squishies that you can get from Kmart or the majority of sensory stores. Some dabble in it. You know we we we have over 120 stockists now around Australia that stock at our our range but they only stock some of it we're quite obsessive and we drill down into the minutest difference. Like the difference of 10 grammes can be huge. For for us. And so we don't just stop at one thing, we add weight in it tiny increments and you only have to look at our wrist spike. And I think there's seven sizes with some with weird names, because I ended up putting sizes in the middle of sizes and then couldn't come up with a name and. But yeah, we. Sorry, that was totally off topic. Ohh goodness. How to tell someone ADHD without? Right.

Carter

Yeah, now you're. All good. So 6 1/2 years ago, 6 1/2 years ago he started it. It's amazing. So from then till now you just said 120 stockists in Australia.

Jo

Around, yeah, around 120. So cause I mean the majority of what we do still is from our own online platform our we weren't until COVID we were like our website existed, but we were mainly events we went because you know we loved going to markets. That was our heritage. So we went to to markets and then we moved into also. Disability specific events which? Was also great, but then COVID hit and for almost 2 years that wasn't our thing. So we improved our Web website, which is really cool and now it's less events and more of the online thing and.

Carter

So is it it? It's a full time. Job now.

Jo

100% so my husband myself for a couple of years we held down full time jobs at end and then it got to a point where we had. To pick, we didn't. I I there was no more hours, I. Could not sleep. Picking and packing water, the other thing is we're pretty obsessive about because our products are need based. I mean we have we have tools that replace non suicidal self harm that we've developed partly because we have lived experience in our home. That's where that came out of a need for, for, for us in house. And then we moved it to a a commercial. Right. But it so yeah, the the need was so great, but we like to get our orders out same day if we can because there's a need at the end of there's a cup over full at the end and. The other thing. Is, you know, and we understand being neurodiverse ourselves that when you order something and you're ordering something. And it's a need. It's very hard to be patient. To wait for it too. Like it's like where is. It where is it like I've got an email This morning from someone who ordered at 8:30 last night and at 8:00 this morning, they're asking where the tracking was that that is our client, you know. And when it hadn't even hit business hours yet and. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They were kind of going. It's 12 hours. Their anxiety was not coping with the fact that they haven't got tracking. Yet and and I get it. Like you could you could get frustrated by that and. Think, Oh my. Goodness, it's not even what a work day yet. But I get. It so.

Carter

I'm glad that you get it. It's that's really, really refreshing to hear from a business owner because I feel like majority of businesses would receive that email and be like Jesus Christ. Like ******* hold your horses, mate. You know, it's 12 hours. It's not even within business hours. But the fact that you're. Like I get it. And we'll we'll do our best to get this out like now. Is is absolutely amazing, especially when it's such a need. A needs based community that's buying all of all of the things that you sell.

Jo

100%. And and the other thing that we. Obsessively do people, it's. So funny people have no idea of the the madness that goes on here. Like literally we. Back unless it's in a sealed box, we check everything because again, look, we understand that things can like some of the things we don't make ourselves. If we make it ourselves, we're testing it as we're making it. So rarely does that make up, but we also source products. So those things, but we we check most of them if we can, like if it's physically possible. We do check it because it's not that we have a problem with replacing things if they're faulty, we get. That that happens. But at the end of our orders is a cup again over fall. And then if you receive a product and it's faulty, it's another. Instead of helping support your mental health, we've just created anxiety. I think for you. To do will. You, you know, a worry that will they even believe me that it? Was broken on. Arrival. That's the opposite of what we're trying to do. We're. Trying to actually support people, not. So we're obsessive here. And the other thing we're obsessive about is colour matching. So the way to absolutely mess with us, if you wanna just. For ***** and. Giggles it out is. Place an order with all purple things in it. And then just throw one random green thing in. Because we like we like, so we always send with our orders cause we like to touch that that we are. That's probably not the right word. But touch people we. Want people to know? That we we we see them, we feel them. So there's always a surprise in the order and like we meticulously if you order a whole bunch of stuff that's purple, we will hunt for that purple thing. Send so that the order. Like ah, it's just all matches, it's. Beautiful, but it does mess with this one. When someone actually orders and it's just like there's a random colour thing in there. We and we, we have to self talk through. It's OK. They're probably got another child that child likes green. Yeah. You help one.

Carter

100% look, I I definitely see where. You're coming from there. I think it's it's absolutely beautiful that that relationship with your customer is is about most importance.

Jo

Yeah, it's.

Carter

Especially in this community, yeah, it it is.

Jo

It's a privilege. It's a it's a privilege.

Carter

It certainly is.

Jo

And people are trusting like we would probably. Yeah, 5 to 10 emails a day from people sharing really challenging stuff, whether it be around self harm or regulation issues or you know, I had a vet surgeon contact me and they were, you know, close to losing their jobs because they weren't regulating when things were going South when they were operating on animals. And needed some support so people are sharing some really personal stuff. With me and you know it is a privilege to be able to journey with him, to try and identify those things, because a lot of the things that we struggle with, there's a lot of shame attached to it too. But I mean, for me, it doesn't need to come when I talk, you know, alright, let's just get into it. We'll talk poo smearing, head eating, all sorts of things like, yeah. And that's super common. And it's really hard. Can you imagine? A grown adult saying I like to fecally smear things, you know? Help me, you know. Understand that. And what can I use that might support me in a more socially acceptable way when I'm out and. Click. That's a really shock can't text bravery. To have that conversation. But I mean, for me it's just it it it's just sensory and let's let's unpack it together. Sorry, I've used an not an extreme example, but.

Carter

No, that's OK. I work in youth justice and prisoners smear pool as well. So I'm no strange. No stranger to that scenario.

Jo

Yes. Yeah, well. 100%. I reckon if you would have if you would assess or like go through the diagnostic process for the majority of people that in prisons you would find that your diversity would be.

Carter

It's pretty rampant.

Jo

Like I would. Almost say it'd be the vast majority.

Carter

There's a whole slew of things you know, like neurodiversity, is probably neurodiversity in ADHD, is way up there, but you know, then you've got other outside factors of, you know, growing up in.

Jo

Sure. Ah.

Carter

Below the poverty line, circumstances or being born with foetal alcohol syndrome, things like that. So you know, a lot of the clientele have the odds stacked against them from a very young age and it's and it's heartbreaking to see and it's, you know, yet again one of those things that needs to be updated and looked into more.

Jo

100%. Yet 100%.

Carter

To put more supports in place instead of what currently happens, but.

Jo

Ohh absolutely.

Carter

You know that's. An entirely different conversation that we won't get into because.

Jo

We could save the world together.

Carter

Ohh look, it would take a a couple €1000 divergent people, but I reckon we'd be able to make some sort of change.

Jo

A half a percent.

Carter

Look, for now you're doing your thing with Keiko fidgets. And I'm doing my thing with the podcast, and I think those two intersecting is a pretty cool privilege in itself.

Jo

It is.

Luke

Hey, guys. It's Luke here. Some of you may know me from TikTok as AKA Luke Andrew for season two of the Touched Out podcast. I'm teaming up with my good friend Carter to bring you loops mindful Matt. Where I'll be choosing a question or topic from my TikTok family and having a yarn about it on here. So if you want to ask a question, suggest a topic or I've even recently posted a question that I haven't been able to answer. Jump back over to my tick tock if you haven't already pressed that follow button and shoot me a comment. How do you deal with any urges you? May get for a drink. It's a really interesting question because I'm not sure I'm even dealing with them properly yet at at 32 days into this journey. I know that I've made a point of trying to change all my routines or habits that came with a drink or a smoke, which is difficult when you are essentially A functioning alcoholic because most movements. In your day, or even in either lead to having a drink or come with a drink in your hand. Interestingly enough, as someone who suffers from from anxiety. As well used to. Like use the beer or a drink. And I've thought about this. It's like it's like, it's almost like a. Safety blanket like that child that goes in. To like the unknown or or needs to leave the house and they've got that one blanket that keeps them safe. I could go into a social environment as long as I knew that there was a beer close or I had one on me. I was more confident in that scenario, which? Is weird because. Not going into it drunk. There's just some weird mental thing in your head that by holding that or having access to that for some reason, you feel a little bit safer or a little bit more yourself, which now that I'm saying it out loud, it it it, it is a difficult thing to comprehend like an adult with a safety blank. Like it of poison. So as far as like. The urges go now. I probably I. Mean I don't. I don't even really like to refer to them as urges. It's more a a fear of the unknown. I feel like I have lost my safety blanket. So initially in in the in the in the first days. Coming home from Detox as far as dealing with urges, what I tried to do is avoid any situation. Then only like baby steps, I guess so. Initially any situation that it was a given, I had a beer in my hand. So we're talking like after like in the afternoon, for example, if I'd gone for a drive, I would make sure that I took a different, a different Rd, so I wouldn't go past that. The normal bottle shop where you might accidentally on autopilot just. Just wanna cruise into. I had to avoid things in the home that always came with it, even like of the evening. After tucking the kids in or cooking dinner. When you're cleaning up the kitchen, I know this might sound bad, but I would have to avoid doing a few of those things to begin with just because it came hand in hand. If I was sitting down to play a video game once the kids were asleep, I haven't. I haven't touched my Sony PlayStation in 32. Days I know as a grown man. Might not be hard for some people to comprehend, but when I would sit down to do that, it would come. With a beer. So rather than deal with the. Initially I was just avoiding situations where I would just ******* reach for it in autopilot, and then I would take it one step further and I started just like occupying myself. I always say like and certainly in the beginning I'm still in the beginning, right? So my idle hands I think is like the devil's playground. I cannot, I cannot, and I won't just sit still. I busied myself. I think I've cleaned this House more than *******. I don't know how many times I'm going from top to bottom. And I'm at a. Point now where I'm dusting things and if it looks clean, I will dust it again because I'm afraid if I sit down, my mind's gonna go. Somewhere else. So I guess as far as avoiding them, yeah, I'm doing whatever I can to avoid initially the situations where it comes hand in hand and then trying to occupy my mind. With with other with other things. In the hopes that I'm going to be distracted enough that I don't think about the urges cause the urges are always there, people say it's one day at a time. Yeah, I mean I I guess like the the detox and things like that. Starters one day at a time. But once you get out and you're left to your own devices as as an adult, then you. Can just go wandering. Out of the shop, if you want it, I think it's. It's really important to understand that it can be one minute at a time. Occupying my mind has been the most important thing I can. Do. But I also know that that's only short term. I've genuinely started like counselling and seeing a psychologist and trying trying to do the work to heal. I guess that I've spoken about it before. The little loop, the reason or the person in me that led me to these things to begin with and trying to heal that or work on that. To the point where maybe I won't always lean towards that type of poison to numb emotion, and I think I, you know, I'm, I'm. I'm genuinely gonna have to start feeling it again and ultimately I hope that they subside. I I don't know how long it. Take, but I don't, I don't really deal with them. I feel them all the time. But the best thing I can do is occupy myself putting time into the kids. Not that I didn't already, but genuine time and trying to distract myself with anything that's fun for them. I don't want to be that boring guy that just ignores them all because I'm trying to just pace around the house and. And clean things in an attempt to not. Go and pick up a bottle or or a can and another thing is I'm I'm talking more so not just like random videos where I post a TikTok. I'm finding ways to make myself accountable so even when I feel the urges I have enough reason not to follow through on them. And it's it's. As it's as much as like letting. My wife or my good mate? No. So I'm really. Feeling like a drink right now, today has been a bit ****, and if if I was left alone or I had an opportunity, I might and just by voicing it they will come back with the. But you're doing so well or but you know you won't because you've got X amount of days or whatever, so you're not. You're not even like looking for for someone to pat you on the back, but by verbalising these things, I guess you're making yourself. A little bit more accountable and then it's I find that once I've once I've expressed that the urge goes away, because I've somehow busied myself just by talking and then getting some reassurance or or or something of the sort. I guess. Alright. So that was probably the long answer, but in reality the short answer is I I'm not. I'm not dealing with them right now, so to speak. I'm avoiding them and I am hoping that I can do the work to limit the amount of urges I have and in time not feel like a drink. Just be confident and happy in the healthier person that I've become. But yeah it it's it's. 100% one day to one minute at a time.

Carter

So we'll go a little bit back in history. When was Kai? So Kai's your oldest, correct?

Jo

Yes, correct. Yep.

Carter

When was Kai diagnosed?

Jo

So Kai Kai was diagnosed autistic in Grade 5, dyslexic in grade one. He was so significantly dysgraphic and dyslexic that it kind of masked everything. Looking back once he was assessed, it was really easy to see right from birth. That the either he was autistic. I think, but it wasn't. But he he the weight of his dyslexia diagnosis was so significant for him. He felt so shattered and so broken, and it was significant. So he's he's working. Memory was like 99.6%. No, sorry. His working memory was 17 percentile. And his innate intelligence, or IQ, was in the 99 point. 6 percentile so really, which is very typical for a new neurodiverse person to. Have polar like. Hot peaks and troughs. And so Kai, albeit was super clever, he was super clever at knowing how not clever he was. At school so. It really it was painful so that that weight of the dyslexia, he hated, hated it still does with the passion. Like he says, his disability is dyslexia. His autism is his superpower. It's literally has how he sees it. So I didn't want to. Go through the assessment process because I didn't know that he's fragile mental health would take. What was yet another, you know, for society, another label in in in grade 4-5, somewhere around there Kyle just said to me one day mum and my autistic and I said, what do you think mate like you know what? What makes sense for. You and he said. I think I am. I have. A number of friends that are. Asperger's is the how what the words he said to me that the number of friends that say Asperger's and I'm very similar to them and I think that I might be and I said. Yeah. Well, I can understand that. You might think that, mate, do you want to be assessed? He said yes, please. Because I lie awake at night worrying about it. And I said, you know, we how I also cause. I just needed to check in because his mental health had been such a challenge. And we, you know, we did have some some self harm going on. So I just, I just did. Make sure that he was ready. And he said no, I'm. I'm fine. I said. So if they come back and say, Yep, mate, you're autistic. How do you feel that you're, you know, cope with that? And he goes. No, no, that it will help. Me understand who I. Am I'm like, OK, cool. And so we went through the assessment process. It was really interesting, the, the therapist said when she had an initial assess chat with Kyle. She's like, oh, this kid's not autistic. I don't think he's autistic. And then she said as I started peeling back the layers and actually doing the assessment process, that diagnostic process, she said. It's so clear. That he was. But it was quite surprising, and I think that's why he probably slipped under the radar. So it was a very long version of Kai was in Grade 5 when he was assessed.

Carter

No, that's OK long long version is totally fine. So Grade 5 and you said that Kai had had some history and self harm at that age.

Jo

Yeah, yeah.

Carter

It must have been pretty, pretty hard to deal with his parents.

Jo

Ohh so many of us are dealing with it, though I don't you know. Yeah. Started for Kai just using a pen or something in his pencil case into the leg so he'd come home with pen marks all over him. But it wasn't him drawing on himself. It was him stabbing himself in the leg to try and job. And it was in. It was in year seven that it, like it got worse. But it's actually, you know, like I am so grateful. I mean, I would change it if I could. I guess the Kai. But through Kais eyes, I remember that the day that he came home and had cut himself for the first time for the first time. And at school. And quietly. Not overtly, not in front of you know, the teacher. Quietly under the desk, you'd just something had happened in the schoolyard and then a high cognitive load was given to him. So something in English that was just too hard. And the combination of the two just absolutely fried him and it just tipped him. And and when he came home, like, I mean, I literally. Couldn't talk to anyone for about two weeks. Was like just about rocking in the corner. Because it was pretty significant, the harm that he'd done. But as he and I unpacked it, I guess over the few. Weeks because you'll. Automatically think it's suicidal and that literally their lifes at risk and Oh my gosh, you know, what do I need to do? You go into management mode, what you know, what do I need to put in place to keep my kids safe? How do I help him? But Kyle really is amazing at articulating things, and he just said mum, I'm not trying to kill myself. And there can be blurring by the way. And I do understand that and lots of people struggling that with that for the loved ones or themselves, you know it it can be both, he said. But I'm not trying to kill myself, but I'm the pain helps stop that. That exquisite pain in my. Head over here. So just the pain in. My head, it stopped all the thoughts. When I'm hurting myself, all that goes away and I stopped looping on it and so it was when as soon as he said that to me. I'm like, right, so we need to find something that gives you pain that doesn't break the skin. And he said yes. And so the very first respite year happened. We had the finger spikes, which are an acupressure tool, initially, and we cut. I cut them up, and I wired them together. They were a little bit dangerous, but, you know, it was my child. And my mother experiment. On him because. Of the wiring you know a little bit average, but I literally wired together the finger spike is into a wrist thing. For him to wear. On his wrist. And he never cut again, and he started using that tool when he was just. Test. The thing is spiky, by the way, can do the same thing if you put it on the middle finger and up where like you would be wearing a ring and clench your fist. It really hurts. I don't have you got a finger spike, you know.

Carter

I don't know so. I've got. I've got a fidget ring and. I've got one of your. Fidget necklaces and this this has helped me immensely if I have. If I have to go anywhere where I am required to be so.

Jo

Yes. Amazing.

Carter

All this comes with me every time.

Jo

Yeah. Do you like the? Do you like the way you've got this silkworm? Haven't you? Yeah, it's the silkworm. So just sorry, we're slightly off topic, but do you do you like things that are weighty cause the chain? Around your neck is quite weighty.

Carter

Yeah, I I'd never used to, but this chain is that was for Christmas from my wife. My wife buys. All my jewellery. I like my jewellery.

Jo

Yes, yes.

Carter

But this was the first heavy thing that I'd ever had around my neck, and at first it was a little jarring. But I also like the fact that I can just.

Jo

OK.

Carter

Pull it off.

Jo

Pull it off when you need to. Yes, exactly.

Carter

With without having to kind of put it over my head and stuff like that, it's a lot of movements and I don't like having to do that. But the fact that I can just pull it off. And it clicks off straight away, made me think like, OK, I like the weight and I enjoy having the weight on me, but when it's too. It's literally a yank, and it's gone, and I don't have to worry about it, so that's perfect.

Jo

It's gone. Ohh great the the reason I asked that is I've just had cause I'm constantly designing a bit like yourself, very creative. We've got some new much bigger smooth beads that are even way more weightier there probably three times the weight than. That so if you. But it might be too heavy if you're saying it. Took you a bit to get back.

Carter

Well, this is heavy now. So now that I'm used to weight around my neck, I. I enjoy it, but yeah it.

Jo

Ohh, maybe you can.

Carter

Took a little while.

Jo

Maybe I can send you one and you can tell me. What you think? Because it's not, it's.

Carter

Oh, I would love that.

Jo

Not it's not available. I haven't. Even got a. Name for it yet, but I've got to be.

Carter

OK, I'll I'll happily be your your tester. That's totally fine.

Jo

Can you see amazing.

Carter

Yeah, 100%. So I mean the. Can you tell me a little bit more about the spiky rings and the spiky bracelets? Because I don't exactly know what they are because I haven't delved into like the prevention of self harm because I'm no longer a self harm. Well, in my adult life, but I think a lot of people listening would like to hear about what they are and how they work.

Jo

Well, so we've got a number of products. They're not the only two, but we've got a number of products that we've developed now to provide hurt without harm or Ouch without harm. So high sensory input, which we've found for so many even people that don't necessarily self harm, find the pain really helps resettle it regulate. And often it's interesting. Often though. Is that have trouble with regulation or are neurospine they tend to like to? Tattoo because the pain actually really helps it like it's it's it, it's actually. An endorphin hit. And so I find there's a really strong correlation to. It's I find it. It's it's quite happy. You know, it's so we've got two products. That are wearable, one being the spiky ring, and you can some use it just rolling it up and down the finger. Some twist it around the tip of the finger if they're pickers, so it kind of emulates picking without actually digging into the skin and. Cause a lot of it. The concern around self harm is that it can cause infection, stigma, scarring and there's a lot of shame, feelings of shame and embarrassment around because most aren't doing it for an outward kind of attention seeking, you know, behaviour. It's for the most part, it's to try and help regulate and makes.

Carter

It's an extreme steam essentially.

Jo

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I like that way. I like that expression. Exactly. And so, you know, some schools have thought as you try and, you know, fix it, you go to therapy and CBT and all, all, all, all, all that. Whereas for me it it's a lifelong need for the majority of people. High sensory import is perfectly OK. To seek, but we need to do it in a safe way, so we've created a number of tools that allow really firm or significant Ouch without actually doing the harm. Bit one big things like you. So yes, twisting around the. Tip can kind of hurt. But putting it on the base of the middle finger and clenching a fist really bites. Into the two fingers either side and so you can be you can have your hands in your pocket squeezing your fist. No one can even see it. And be really delivering that punch of Ouch and the risk bikie is same material but thicker and fatter. A lot of people when they get the respite. You though they they they roll it up and down their arm or flick it because often they're using like a band to flick as a replacement already and they think ohh you know it's not really hurting. As much as I expect it to, you can do those things with it, but the way you use it is actually push it, put your hand over the inside. Your wrist press down and twist around like a Chinese burn, and that's where the outcomes and you can again control how much Ouch it will redden the skin if you used excessively not excessively, like for a period of time, it will render the skin, but it doesn't tend to break it at all. The only thing I will preface saying is that you need to. OK. If you've got active wounds, it's usually better to just start with the fingers biking, just while the wounds are healing, because obviously. If you've got. An open wound and you're dragging something abrasive over.

Carter

It's going to agitate it, yeah.

Jo

It it's gonna agitate. And cause cause issue. Yeah. And we've also got a sensory because we were working a lot with organisations that we're dealing with, people coming out of the acute. Phase of drug. And alcohol withdrawal, and often those. Are experiencing that feel like they wanna rip their bodies apart like it's a really common expression, like I just. Need to rip. A body apart. Like, they're, like, literally incensed with that. Feeling. And so we created a double sided massage glove. One side has stainless steel rolling balls and you can put that in the fridge so you can have that really cold because I find cold sits in the. Same family as. Pain that really often we all like really like cold rooms, cold things. And so we've got one side for that and the other side. Is really spiky. It's plastic, I guess lots of spikes and then you drag it across your skin, particularly on the inside of thigh or arm and it really, but you can use it all over the. Body it's a really deep scratch. OK. So that's those people who. Try it, it's. Kind of like. It's kind of like I, I repeat, a lot of things as coriander. Fidgets. Who kind? Of love or hate it, it's you. Know, but the majority of people are like. Oh my gosh, that's amazing. Thing. So we've got that and we've also got a pick and peel range. We don't make those, we get those in from an amazing human in America who makes them. So that's to sort of emulate picking and peeling. But our wearable tools, anything that you can be wearing means that in that exact moment is that one of the things that often therapists. Just as people hold ice in their hands when they're feeling the need to self harm, I don't know about you, but I don't know that it's that socially acceptable. Walk around with the ice in your hand tripping. I mean like it's a good solution and you know, if you're out and about, you haven't got anything. But for for me and for our family, we needed to come up with. A solution that could. Be on our humans and use it in the exact moment they need it and not look weird or strange so that they can, yeah. So they can use it in the moment without hiccuping a beat, and if you. Can catch. That need for regulation or step. And in the moment, it often then doesn't escalate.

Carter

Yeah, definitely. It's something that I definitely wish I had when I was growing up. I my self harming was was very out in the open and very brazen and it was also masked as me just being like this ******* party animal. I was a burn up. I would put cigarettes out on my arm like almost every day. And and I was able to do that directly in front of my group of friends because I was just being a ******* and I was just doing this **** for a laugh. But it was it it. It definitely was a lot more than that. But I marketed it in a way that it would be socially acceptable for me to do these pretty horrible things to myself without anyone thinking like that. You should probably stop doing that or like, are you OK? Do you need to talk to someone? It was just like, oh, you know, Carter's just who. He is and.

Jo

He's he's crazy there.

Carter

Yeah, he's a crazy crazy. He's a crazy. Dude, let's get drunk. Kind of thing, you know it. It was super unhealthy, you know, now that I can look back on it and and understand and rationalise the behaviours and why I did that, it certainly makes a lot more sense to me. So the fact that you are putting those products out into the world and happily talking about it in such just a normal and respectful manner and not having any type of stigma involved in the conversation or any type of you know, it being taboo, it's it's really great and there needs to be a lot more of those conversations.

Jo

Ohh absolutely and and. That's probably the thing I hear the most from. Like when we were on. We were on invited to be that was a call. I thought someone was taking the ****. I got a phone call. Hey, it's such and such from sunrise. We were wondering if you'd like to be on this weekend. I just saw someone is taking the **** out of me and someone's. Playing a practical. Joke, but it was. Real they actually had come across. Our harmonisation product and wanted to talk about it. On breakfast TV, how cool is that?

Carter

That's pretty cool.

Jo

How brave of them. I I I. Thought they were really. Brave to have that conversation. And I I was flooded with emails of people. Saying thank you. You for being prepared to talk about that on national television. Ohh my goodness. I felt so saying because The thing is, people kind of picture it. It's, you know, it's disgruntled you there. But it's the Carters that are doing the self harm. You know, the young Carter, you know, they're either out there showing off or they're out there trying to make a statement or they're out there and they're confused. Or in pain, but it's the kind of broken youth. But it's actually, it's not just that it's every, it's every everyone. It's literally. It so to give you an idea, when we're sending out anywhere upwards of, you know, 40 to 100 orders a day, our single biggest seller and I kid you not and like we have plenty of other things that probably suit a a broader population, our single biggest seller is our spiky finger and risk it's it is literally it would. It would find its way into homes. At least 20 or more a day, often more. So you think about that. That is, that is such a huge.

Carter

That's amazing.

Jo

Century say, like it's way more common than people expect, and I think in any given household there's probably someone at least that finds pain helpful to regulate.

Carter

Yeah, yeah. And and it can, I was going to ask as well because there would definitely be an overlap with. With different cultures, subcultures with the wrist spiking the finger spiky, it would probably. Oh sorry the the sensory glove. It would probably find its way into the top drawer of a lot of people's homes, if you know what I mean. It would definitely be like a a pleasure play fetish kind of thing as well.

Jo

Yes, 100% ah 100%. Yeah, yeah, I I've I've been.

Carter

So, so good on you for that as well.

Jo

There's a company, so we actually. Side side note, we actually created another website called Metal fidgets. It's we recognise that there was a really strong overlay or a connection between neurodiversity and gender fluidity, and also with neurodiverse adults often having things so visually cluttered can be difficult. So we actually created a web. Site called Metal fidgets and all the models are from other trans, queer, non binary community, but also delving into pack and play equipment binders, sensory tools for there we haven't gone there yet cause I've gotta work out how you actually do that without getting banned. By Google and not have it available because you don't want it necessarily available for because. As an autistic individual, sex is still important part of life. It's a sensory thing, but we don't necessarily process things in the same way, and our needs are different. So yeah, there's actually a lot of people out there in that. Well, not maybe a lot, but there are businesses out. They've got. There's one over in America, they're called, I don't know if they've launched it. They're. Called morning wood. What a what a bloody. Brilliant name is that morning. Wood and they make sex equipment like furniture for neurodiverse individuals. Like it's a thing. Anyway, sorry digress, but yes.

Carter

No, it's it's super, super, super interesting. I I myself I've I've had a working theory for years that are really, really high percentage of people in like the tattooed and pierced and body modification community.

Jo

It is.

Carter

Which also coincidentally overlap into like the fetish and **** and pain for pleasure community are all on the spectrum. You know, I I think that tattooing and body modifications and things like that is a a type of aesthetic masking. I can cover myself head to toe in tattoos and I can make myself look how I. Think I want to look. As a way of not having to show my real self. So I think it's. I think that's really, really kind of interesting to think about. I'm not too sure if that could be correct, but that's just my theory.

Jo

It makes sense.

Carter

Because I hated tattoos growing up, I really, really did. And then I turned 18. I I do. Not anymore. It is definitely, you know, and a lot of people in the tattoo community when they get tattooed, they call it therapy. This is my.

Jo

OK. And see you don't anymore. Yeah, 100%.

Carter

I'm not so much about the pain anymore. I've found that pain tends to be a lot more hurty as I get older in life.

Jo

OK.

Carter

So I'm 36. I just had my throat and chest done about a month and a half ago and halfway through I opted to take a break and put some put some numbing.

Jo

Yeah, yeah.

Carter

Numbing cream on and and it's the first time. Have used it and a lot of tattoo people in in, in our community would be like ohh that's cheating. But you know it is what it is. I've I've paid my dues. I've got enough tattoos and I've. Gone through enough. Pain I wanted. To break. But yeah, yeah, I think it's super cool that that you're delving into that world and and kind of going in a different direction, but.

Jo

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Wow.

Carter

The work that you're doing overall is just so important, and I'm so so thankful to not only own some of your your things. I think this is probably like two or three years old. So my wife bought it for me as a as a gift before I was even diagnosed because she knows I'm a fidgeter and because she is also neuro spicy. She hates me fidgeting because she's very, very averse to sounds, so this was as much a gift for her as it was for me. She was like play with this instead of clicking your fingers and stamping your feet. And friggin sucking on your teeth and all of this **** that you do that annoys me. Yeah. So before we wrap up, looks like we're almost ready to wrap up. Is there anything that you want to add or is any shout outs you want to do, you can definitely plug your website and tell? Everyone a bit more about that.

Jo

Ohh well, our website is www.kaikokaikofidgets.com. It's a combination of Kai is my son's. Name and my. Other son's Kobe. So Kai and Kobe. Kobe. Yeah, he wanted it to be called that. Kokoba fidgets. But it was too much of A mouthful. So it was Keiko, but no, just thank you so much, Kyle, for having me come on board and having him. Yeah, I just. It's always such a lovely opportunity to have a opportunity to have. A chat and. And just shoot the breeze with another. Person who gets it. It's just so. Nice, particularly now that I understand more myself. Yeah, it's just such a it sows into my soul when I'm talking to someone else. Who? I just. I don't feel like I have to explain it. You just kind of get it. And we can kind of go. Yes and yes. Yeah. And it just it feels. Good, I don't feeling.

Carter

It's a different level of excitement, isn't it? Like you'll walk away from the conversation just you. Know a bit happier and a bit more beamy today.

Jo

Yeah, yeah, that's exactly how I. Feel and. And go ask that we both push past our lack of dopamine to do the adult thing and get on the, you know what? I mean like I. I get that I I don't wanna now do this now. You know, it's a thing so. And you know if if you've bought bed with us and listened to this, you know, thank you and and I guess probably the only thing I would like to say is that if anyone.

Carter

Yeah, yeah.

Jo

Has any questions? Or any particular sensory things that they're struggling with, they're welcome to email me and read or reach out. Any any way and I'm happy to have those personal conversations I I won't disclose them to anyone else. I won't. You know that they stay with me. I will unpack it. I I I sometimes take a few days to get back to you. Cause particularly if there's a lot of information in the email initially, sometimes like I'll get. Size and it's like it can, it can. Hit me in an overwhelmed because there's a lot and I wanna make sure I. Honour it, yeah. So that can be sometimes. A bit. Ohh. OK, I need to make sure I. Really now? Because I. I wanna now that cause the wrong sense. See, that's the other thing about sensory things. We're not all the same. And the wrong sensory tool. Is sometimes less helpful than no sensory tool, and so I'm pretty passionate about if we can nailing it up. Front for people. And the other thing is to not assume for others if something really works for you or. Doesn't work for. You, particularly as a parent listening you love XY or ZI see it so often it exposes you know the. The the child will pick. Up something? I mean most of. Our our clients attend to adults, but we do obviously care for younger, you know, a child will pick up something and they're like, oh, please, can I have it? And you can see their shoulders drop. You can see them respond in a really positive way to what they're. Pudding and the parent picks it up, doesn't do anything for them, picks up one of the other things, and it's often if it's a mum, it's the Caterpillar fidget, which is similar to what you're wearing around your neck and they pick it up. And their shoulders. Drop without like. No, no get this. This is what you need and the child's like. No, no. I really want this. This. The COG, this splitting thing and. They're like, no, no, no, no. And it's two different sensory profiles. So it's really important to honour, even from a really little age. You know, it's not about. Your needs. It's about the person trying to seek what what works for them, so there isn't a cookie cutter. I'm pretty good at profiling, like and. I I can help guide people if they but I usually want to know what sort of things you're seeking now. What are you doing? What do you find helpful? What don't you find helpful and that'll give me some pretty. Would information, but it is so personal and it's OK. Whatever it is, it's OK. But if for any reason it's not working cause the other thing is for many people you know, I get people saying, you know I I a mum said the other day that their son was yeah. Stemming by grabbing their chin. And rubbing it all the time. She's like, what could I do to replace that? What? What? Like, what would be helpful? And my question was, I think their son was 14. And I said well. Can I ask is it causing any jaw issues? Is it causing you know blisters or? No, no, no. No, I said. Is it embarrassing your son? No, no, he's fine with it. I said so. The issue. The main issue is that you feel uncomfortable with it. She's like. Yes. And I said I it's really hard to say this gently. But then then we need the the the work that needs to happen is with. Because if that seems OK, if it might be OK for him now in 14 and might when he's 21, not he might not feel OK for it. But that's when we tackle it. Yeah, it's OK to steam and it's OK to steam, not necessarily with fidgets. If you've got a quirky stem and you're comfortable with it, you know, knock yourself out.

Carter

Yeah, I own it.

Jo

Like it's perfect. Yeah, I think it's perfectly. And and I think hopefully we're getting to that place where people are a lot. More comfortable with that, I will. Say and this is not to do with any of my products, but just one of the most. Effective sensory tools, if tolerated in the mouth, because obviously we don't all tolerate different things. You know in and all range of ways, but is chewing gum. It is the best sensory support. I recommend it more than any fidget I have and if I don't like minty things Hubba Bubba and there's often. A lot of American shops that stock stock, you know, unusual flavours, not just your standard strawberry and. Grape so you can experiment but chewing gum. Is a really good. Sense of support and yes, for the most part, you. Can get schools to allow it in with. The right letters at the noise that we have. To do that but the letters. If they're using and disposing it of an A tissue, but chewing gum is that constant resistance and that movement cause movement drops adrenaline and cortisol. In the brain. Which helps quieten down the fright flight and when we're in fright flight that front part or the executive function part of our brain can't. Work the. Yeah, the thinking, learning, processing part of the brain and the survival Flight Flight Centre. They're not friends. They don't play together when their flight flight centres on this really high. Levels of adrenaline. Orders all and the way our brain drops those two levels of chemicals in our brain so that we can think we can process, we can do the, the, the things that we need to. Do as adults or. Kids is to move the body because movement drops those two chemicals and the closest moving joint is the jaw. And so it's the most efficient and delivering the message. That's why we often stick our fingers in. Our mouth will chew. On clothes sleeves, grind comfort, eat stuff, lollies in our mouth, talk sometimes even talking because that. We'll over talk. Or we'll stim with our mouth, or do vocal stemming, and that can off. Would be the brain just telling the Jordan do the thing so that the chemicals can drop Smokey? Yep, 100% so chewing gum is a really good support and I like people to understand actively that it's a tool. Because if you're starting to disregard, they say you're at work and someone just ******.

Carter

Yeah. Smoking. Vaping. Those things? Yeah.

Jo

You off and. You know you're starting to unhinge. You haven't got your silkworm necklace like you're wearing today, or your fidget ring, and you're getting ****** and you're you're starting to escalate. If you can. In that moment, go. Oh, I need to get my hair. I haven't got any of my tools. I need to get my hands on some chewing gum. You can help bring down those levels pretty quickly because it's fairly accessible. There's a 711 or a colleague or someone usually can usually get it fairly quickly. Sorry that it's not off topic, but it's it's just it's a really helpful tool.

Carter

No, it's great. Yeah. Well, the fact that you're, you know, wanting to share that information and it's not one of your products shows that you just you're not in it for the money and you actually just genuinely care about helping people. So I think that in itself is just absolutely magic. So I think we'll, we'll leave it at that today, Joe. Thank you so much for joining me. And it was amazing to learn more about you and your family.

Jo

Thanks, Carla. Thank you.

Carter

And your business and I think what you're doing. Absolutely amazing and I'm glad that I reached out to you and I'm glad that. I owned some more. Of your products and yeah. Have a great day.

Jo

Thank you so much, Father. Thanks. Thank you.

Outro

Wake up. It's another day to try and find a way to make it so my life's a better. That's one thing I see that the only thing it's me is knowing that I'm trying to make a change. Get up. Put it all. On me, sponse abilities and all the other nonsense coming by repeating. But there's something I know change. Let it go.

Jo

Just knowing that.