Navigating the loss of Baby Sprinkle: A fathers journey of healing and embracing the unknown

This conversation explores the journey of Michael, a father who experienced the loss of an angel baby before conceiving his daughter, Maisie. Michael shares his experience of coping with grief, seeking professional help for mental health, and the challenges of parenting after loss. He emphasizes the importance of embracing vulnerability, self-love, and self-care as a parent. The conversation highlights the power of storytelling and the impact it can have on others. Michael's story serves as a reminder to appreciate the journey of parenthood and to be present in both the highs and lows. The conversation explores the themes of overcoming fear and self-doubt, the loss of resilience, the role of parents in modeling behavior, and the importance of stepping outside the comfort zone.

Other topics discussed in this episode include: 

Coping with the loss of an angel baby can be a challenging and unique experience for both parents.
Seeking professional help and support is crucial for processing grief and navigating the emotional journey.
Maintaining a strong relationship after loss requires open communication, vulnerability, and support for one another.
Parenting after loss can be filled with apprehension and anxiety, but embracing the journey and being present in both the good and challenging moments is important.
Sharing personal experiences and stories can provide comfort, support, and inspiration to others. Fear and self-doubt can hold us back from trying new things and pursuing our passions. It is important to overcome these fears and take the first step.
As children, we have a natural resilience and determination to keep trying, but as we grow older, societal influences and fear of judgment can hinder our willingness to try new things.
Parents play a crucial role in modeling behavior for their children. It is important to create a safe and supportive environment where children feel encouraged to try new things and learn from their mistakes.
Stepping outside the comfort zone is essential for personal growth and development. It allows us to expand our horizons, learn new skills, and overcome challenges.

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Transcript

Carter
OK. So today we have Michael, how you doing, Michael?
Michael
Very well, Carter. Thanks for thanks for having me.
Carter
You're more than welcome, mate. Let's start off with a little bit about yourself and a little bit about your family. Give us a. Little bit of a history and we'll go from there, mate.
Michael
Excellent. Yeah. Look, I guess I'm relatively new to the caper of of of parenting myself and my wife, Sarah. We've got our little beautiful Maisie and also our beautiful little Angel baby. So one Earth side, Maisie is. What is she now sort of coming up 21 months. So she's all just all this baby. So we're not too far off the. The two years which? Is absolutely fine.
Carter
And did Maisie come first? Or after Angel baby?
Michael
Yeah. Maisie was Maisie was after Angel baby. Yeah. So Angel baby would have been the earth side sort of the year. The year prior, sort of around a similar time, actually. So it was a little bit bittersweet when when Maisie came along, but. Yeah. Amazing. Our our rainbow baby and. And look, we love them both very much. One to your side and the others are unfortunately not.
Carter
OK, I'm very, very sorry to hear about that, mate. How about you tell me a little bit about prior to conceiving babies and your wife and yourself, how did you guys meet? How long have you been together?
Michael
Yeah. Looks, I guess sorry to sorry to hit that that that heavy stuff a little bit early, but no, Sarah and I we met at Assumption College in Kilmore. So I was a I was a boarding student there, so we're. We're childhood sweethearts. I guess you'd call it. Yeah, but but I was a boarding student, so that sort of meant that I I lived at school and Sarah was a day student, so it was almost a little bit of a Romeo and Juliet story. It was. It was sort of, no, no, go zone for a boarding student to to end up with the day student. But yeah, look, we we met at school and and sort of continued that. Beyond school, I'm sort of based in NSW but came to Melbourne to study. Yeah, we're we're happy, happy and got married in 2020. So we were married just before the, just before the. And then, Nick, a week before, really we were very lucky to get in. But yeah, I guess let's call it a pretty sort of pretty stock standard relationship. We were together for a long time sort of together for 11:00 or so years before we got married and then that was always the plan. I think for us that we we sort of wanted to go through the process of of the relationship and marriage and. And and then get on with the. I guess with the journey of of parenthood.
Carter
Yeah, very. Good. And so Maisie's coming up to. Two is that. What is that right?
Michael
Yeah. Yeah, she is. Yeah. So about 21 months old now, sort of. Wendy, Wendy, you start. Stop using months and start using years. So a year and a half, I guess. Yeah. But but coming up two years and it's been a, a, a hell of a journey. You know, as I've said, it's it was. It was bittersweet. Sort of still is and and, you know, I guess. For for both of us, it's sort of been something we we always like to acknowledge is. But the fact that we've got 2, two kids, 11 is Earth side and and and one isn't but but I think we sort of Maisie is that the legacy of of our Angel baby lives on through her but yeah. So I've certainly gone certainly gone very fast the you know the the the month that. We've had thus far.
Carter
And do you just refer? To Angel baby as Angel baby. Or did you have a name or anything?
Michael
No. Yeah. Yeah. Well, not not an official name, but, but always sprinkle and look. I guess the reason for that there was a yeah, very early on. When when Sarah was, was pregnant with with sprinkle.
Speaker
That's beautiful.
Michael
We were in the. Yeah, we're in the pantry, I guess. And UM, yeah, we're sort of there was a a sprinkle and then also you've got those those applications that sort of tell you how far along you are and they sort of. Refer to A to a. Fruit or something like that. But yeah, sort of. The sprinkle was was something that that resonated with us and we just kept saying sprinkled after we. We lost him. There. So that was something we sort of attached to and and we referred to to our babies sprinkler overseas, yeah.
Carter
Beautiful. Do you mind if I refer to them as Springfield?
Michael
Absolutely, I'd. I'd love that. Thanks, Carter.
Carter
Beautiful. OK, so if you don't mind, would you be OK with talking about how far along Sarah was when you unfortunately lost? Sprinkle and what your mental health was in the aftermath and what you guys did to kind of get through that really dark time.
Michael
Yeah, absolutely. So serious about 8 weeks. So I've sort of give you just a little bit of a timeline. We went and had the other skin and it was a really sort of cloudy time, I guess and and and COVID was it just the blame for that. So it was not a great experience in the sense that I couldn't be there at the scan, but we went along to the scan at about 5 1/2, maybe six weeks. And I wasn't able to go in, so I had to sit in the in the car and as the first time we sort of wanted to do all these experiences together. It's it's such a joyful time. But I guess that sort of took the wind out of the sails. But the scam was was everything was OK, a little bit of a slow heartbeat was was probably the only thing. But within the average range, if we're. Using medical terms. We were feeling quite good. Yeah, but but a couple of weeks after that, things sort of went downhill. And. Yeah, so it was was 8 weeks when we, when we unfortunately lost. Sprinkle it. Look, it was a confusing time and still sort of he's, I guess. And and and I think everyone sort of experiences loss and grief differently it's it's such a unique experience but but I think I've sort of probably. Wrestled a little bit. With with how to deal with it? Probably with the dad. And and it's. It's such a it's such a unique experience, but I think the challenge for me was was this concept of the fact that my wife was carrying sprinkle. And I think quite often. Fault can can sort of be and and my challenge was is actually going through the grief or embracing the grief myself, because I'll probably got into the habit a little bit of going well. My wife Sarah was carrying sprinkled there for it's it's her loss. So sort of almost compartmentalising this process of of of the fact that they were either 82 and and I think if that. Sort of comes the fact that, yeah, like a lot of the. A lot of the conversations I was having pretty early on with with people that were close to us was how with Sarah, so in that probably you know, and I've, I've, I've, I've certainly read up and a little bit of view before and and this toxic masculinity and trying to sort of break the stigma, but I probably went into this stoic nail and I've got to protect. You know, I've really gotta protect Sarah and her feelings and and even in a funny little way. Run around as well and and in that probably I got lost. A little bit and and I didn't really go through the process of, you know, just going through the grief cycle, I guess and and whatever that cycle is varies according to who you are. But it was, it was a really, really tough time initially a really emotional time for for both of us and you know as the as sort of the days went on, I guess we sort of. Both went through our own individual ways of of dealing, but that certainly came together as well, but probably wasn't until a few months after I remember sort of getting back on the school teacher. And I remember getting back to. School and I was just out of thoughts, you know, I was forgetting things. And I was, yeah. Just really not myself. And and it was probably then that that I was able to step back and go. I've had a mask on, you know this protective mask on for let's call it three to four to five months and and and not really taking the time to step it. Outside myself and and and really embrace my own vulnerability and my own grace. So in a funny little way, it wasn't probably until a few months after that. I probably really. Explored that myself and yeah, that that was that was a, you know, a really nice. Again, bitter, sweet. I'll. I'll probably use that term a fair bit in our conversation because we've got this really significant juxtaposition of, you know, you you have this experience that brings you closer, but. But it's also, I guess, tainted in a funny little way with with sadness and. And, you know, all of these these. Really hard, hard feelings that are difficult for the the the human to process, I guess. But but we we've really celebrated sprinkle I I think that's been the thing and I've I've I've admired. My wife throughout the journey and and what she's been able to do and her strength and courage through it all. Yeah, but it's also sort of led me to having some really difficult conversations with myself and probably having to like to do things, I guess in terms of inner work that I haven't had to do before.
Carter
And did you seek any professional help in in the wake of the loss of sprinkle once you kind of realised that you weren't doing too well yourself and that you had taken on that protector? Well, and kind of maybe pushed your your emotions and your trauma and and everything like that to the to the side a little bit while you made sure everyone else was. OK, which is? Incredibly noble, and it's something that, yeah, a lot of men do take on. But I think there is definitely a fine line between being a protector for really good reason and then. That becoming toxic not only as like an outward thing but an internalised thing, and you're just really not looking after yourself and then you can't be the best you can be for. Everyone around you anyway, so it's. It's really a double edged sword.
Michael
Yeah. Yeah, it is. It is. And you know to to your question there. Yeah, I I, I I certainly did. I went and. I I saw. Saw external support and that that was really and continues to be really significant for for me in in just the whole understanding and and and that's probably been the big thing. Harder today, to be honest with you is. Is, I think, a lot of all of it for me was just confusion and then with confusion came a little bit of bitterness and resentment for for a lot. Of things but. And and and I probably thought a lot of these feelings with it and and bitterness had nothing to do with the, the the trauma I went through and the grief I was feeling. But that was the great. And beautiful thing about seeking that support is it just helped me see things and and and understand the relationship between what I've gone through, I guess and and the feelings I was feeling and and I I guess in in a a great turn of events what it allowed me to do was actually. Harness all of these feelings and and and and make sense of them. And then in turn sort of be able to understand them and sort of move through that process of the fact that, yes, you've gone through a really challenging thing, but but there can be a silver lining in it all and that is that when you do get the the chance to be the father of an earth side baby, you will have had this incredible. Repertoire of of skills that you've worked through as a result of going through something that was was tragic. Let's call it. So that was. Yeah, you. You're absolutely right. The double edged sword was that you're you're you're trying to protect. You're trying to be stoic. You're. Wanna be everything that you're probably not doing as well as you think you are because you've got this underlying bitterness, sadness, all of these emotions that I probably didn't even under understand my myself were were bubbling away in the surface. So when I was able to unpack that and really explore myself and what I've gone through, I I felt like I was able to be a much better version of myself and a better husband and now a better father.
Carter
Certainly I I really. Really appreciate you sharing all of those insights. I think that these types of conversations will help other people in similar circumstances who are especially going through that battle. Currently just just purely the fact. That you know, you explained that you you didn't understand those emotions until you sought that professional help and and that really is what it is, you know, they are there to teach you about why you're feeling the way you're feeling and provides you with the tools necessary to figure it all out. Life's a puzzle and trauma, especially, is an even bigger puzzle, and you can't be expected to just understand how to solve that. If it's just thrown at you and go deal with it while also dealing with all of these other puzzles around you of other people and dealing with their loss and their emotions and. It's. Yeah, it's. A really hard time and it's very, very overwhelming and I think for a lot of men their default when there is that amount of overwhelm would to just be shut down and deal with everyone else because then they don't have to deal with their own ****. So I think you and you explaining your story will help immensely with a lot of people. So I do really, really appreciate that when it comes to Maisie. So it was about a year after that Sarah conceived Maisie. Is that right? Yeah. Was Maisie planned or was there a conversation around having another baby? What was? How did that all?
Michael
Go down. Yeah, she certainly was. Carter. Yeah. She it was, you know, it was. It was a A a series of conversations, I guess. And it was I I think if you know, I referred to the silver lining before that. But I think in at all that what it did teach us now lost was that. We we absolutely. It's what we wanted, you know and and and there was a lot of apprehension that sort of that that I guess followed and when you first experiences the experience we had it was sort of. I guess knocking down a fair few of those barriers around. Well, what happens if this happens again and all of these sorts of things, but yeah, maybe certainly was, was a conversation and and and our experience before solidified that we were really keen to be parents.
Carter
Beautiful. I'm just sorry. I'm just looking up. If I can find a percentage of couples who break up after a miscarriage. So 22% of couples are likely to break up after a miscarriage. Was that ever was. Was there ever any any sort of fear or threat of that in your relationship? Or did did you ensure? Your bond was unbroken and your relationship remained as strong as possible in the wake. Of that trauma.
Michael
Yeah, that's that's that's an incredible statistic. And yeah, that's that's sort of rattled me in a in a way because I I get it. I I guess like that that really resonates with me, not not so much because that was our circumstance or situation that, that that was never I I felt in the. This in in a lot of ways what what sprinkle did to us was brought us an incredible amount closer together. You know, I've I've known Sarah had known Sarah for since we were kids. Really. But but I I feel like we were both, you know, like that there was a real sense of that just opened up the doors in terms of vulnerability in our relationship. And openness even more, you know, going through that that trauma and grace together. So look, look at that. Absolutely not. But. But, you know, I guess the reason why that that sort of number resonates with me is because it throws you absolutely into the deep end something like that and. Yeah, I I can see how in a lot of circumstances are in essentially 1/5 of the circumstances is that that people find it all all too hard and and it puts an immense strain on the relationship. But in our circumstance, I think what it really did was was galvanise us and bring us closer together.
Carter
Ohh, I'm glad to hear. That so you've conceived, Maisie? How was the pregnancy? Everything straightforward. Good birth, healthy baby, everything like that.
Michael
Yeah, it's, it's. It's a journey, isn't it? Pregnancy. Look, Matt. Matt Maisie. Yeah.
Carter
It certainly is, and it's one that. Men don't talk about enough.
Michael
Yeah. Gosh, I could. I could probably talk for a fair, a fair period of time here, but look, the pregnancy was was was really, really good, I guess. But but we were as nervous as two people could be. You know, I remember. I remember Sarah sort of showing me the pregnancy test and that was yeah. Like. It's a really interesting one and I'm glad you've asked me this because I probably think I would have. I would have forgot about it, but I remember the feeling not being joy, you know, or or absolute excitement like I. I just remember that feeling of, oh ****, here we go again and. I think we. It was almost a little bit of an unspoken thing that particularly that we we really use timestamps. But for Macy's, Macy's pregnancy, it was like alright, we got to 8 weeks, OK. But then you look at the statistics and you still go OK, the 12 weeks something could happen in 12 weeks and then. And you hear about 12 to 20 weeks and then you have the 20 week scan and and everything was absolutely fine, but it's like, OK, well then you start to talk about other things that that could come between that 20 and 40 weeks. So I'd love to sit here and and tell you that that it was an absolute beautiful ride and that we weren't feeling apprehensive or nervous or anxious, but. But I'd be absolutely lying and it's something, let, let's call it a little bit of regret. I don't know whether that's sort of Fair, but we we we quite often speak about that whole pregnancy and we probably didn't really enjoy it because of what we've gone through previous and we we were really sort of just waiting. In a lot of circumstances, for for something to happen but look physically everything was fantastic the whole way through the birth itself was an experience that I'll never, ever forget. Women are wary. This absolute warriors and to watch. Yeah, to watch Sarah and and to be a part of that. I felt humbled. Really just that that I was able to to be there and not only deliver and be part of the delivery of Maisie but just to watch Sarah she was an absolute boss I call her because she was yeah just incredible and and I think. You know it's it's it's a funny one. It within my sort of friendship group. Bob, Sarah and I. Are the 1st. But sort of since then, we've had a few in our friendship group and you know, you sort of go. You had those conversations you like, took the birth and and just watching. Them in that in. I met my friends coming out the other side and going, Oh my gosh, it was so right. They're just incredible. But yeah, it was a phenomenal experience and and and one that. Yeah. As I said, I'm I was just so grateful to to be a part of.
Carter
Yeah. Certainly. Yeah. You. You hit the nail on the head. Women are absolutely warriors. And I I often think about the births of my children. And I I have a little laugh to myself because in those moments, you know, while your wife is just going to absolute war with her own body and mind and everything is. Just at a level 12 out of 10 and in those little moments that my wife was still worried about such little insignificant things like I was like I the the the doctor said, you know, my baby's crowning. I'll just talk about my first born. The baby's crowning. Would you, dad, would you like to come? Look, and I my wife had been very, very adamant throughout the entire process. I do not want you to look down there and I respected that. But in the moment I was like babe, do you mind if I have a look like this is pretty magical. And she was like. Pushing and pushing, and she'd been at it for like 18 hours. And she's like. Ohh if you have to, but I'm really sorry if I've pooled and I just I think about those things then that makes me laugh so much because I'm like you have just you've you've just fought an absolute war and you're still so so worried about my view of you in case you've done a little bit of a poop. And and I it's really commendable that they they even think of those sorts of things when they're when they're in such the thick of it. So yeah, definitely. Absolutely worriers.
Michael
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. You're right there. And it's it's just sort of on that, that story there as well. Like, I am sort of similar. It was a fair few hours in and and Maisy was getting close. And I was, I was beside myself emotionally. And. And Sarah just looked at me and she said you're gonna be OK. Been amongst her absolute battle and yes, so for her, for her to say that so it just gives you an indication. It's it's it really is amazing how strong they are they that they are.
Carter
Yeah, 100%. So Maisie's born, everything was happy and healthy. Yep, I'm sure you at some stage both breathed a sigh of relief. You know, nine months of just fearing the worst every day would have been absolute hell. Especially it was unspoken because neither of you would have been wanting to be the first to be like, what if? Because. You know you don't want to. Fix the situation or anything like that, so I certainly understand that kind of frame of mind. So yeah, so. Sigh of relief, I'm. Door. How did everything go in the aftermath of the birth? How was Maisie as a young baby? Did she sleep well? Was was she an absolute terror? Any colic, anything like that?
Michael
Yes. So the birth birth went went well. She spent a little period time of of time in, in special care, just with some concerns around her. Her breathing was was quite high or or fast, I should say so. Yeah, that that there was. And and again like it was it was I don't know how many people you're speaking. Do that, that that was sort of in the. The hospital system during COVID. But but there was an element of of of that being tricky because I sort of wasn't able to be there. I could come and visit during the day, but I had to leave overnight. But we were really fortunate because again, we've sort of been the we've been the lucky ones a little bit with time because only a week later it was, I think essentially. Once the birth was done, parents other than Mum had to. Go so look. Immediately after, as you probably recall the the the first one you you, you could read 1000 books on on parenting, but until you sort of in it, you sort of don't know what to expect, but the, the, the, the days, the months following we're we're we're we're busy but we're beautiful. Yeah that they they really were incredible. As I've mentioned before, I'm a school teacher, so we were actually we were online, so I was able to to be at home for essentially Maisie's first three months or be it. I was still teaching online and and and having to engage with with work. But I was able to do it from. From home, which? Was was pretty special and I think when we sort of reflect on that that time we we probably took for granted how lucky we really were for 3:30 or whatever time it was and and lunch breaks that I could come and and they spend time but they also support fair. But it was it was busy Maisy was look she was she was good. I mean in the sense that that we weren't, we didn't have anything like colleagues who was. Probably has never been. We're still navigating the world of sleep, Carter. That's that's an ongoing process for us. But but yeah, she was very much a she was very much a just a a baby. And and our first. So, so much of it of for us was was really yeah. It was just really sort of coming to terms with a. How much our life changed, but what she needed. And as we know, babies can't communicate verbally. So just sort of trying to like wrap our heads around. Yeah, I guess her needs and our role within her needs sort of working in in tandem with each other.
Carter
Yeah, certainly. I mean, you, you never, you never stop learning and never stop trying to figure kids out, mate, no matter how old they get. I've got three, a four year old, a 2 year old and a nine month old. My nine month old has not been a good sleeper at all. We finally got her into some form of. Of routine and her being able to go down in her cot for more than 45 minutes at a time. And that was only about 3 months ago and she's now hit her nine month sleep regression and we are also hit with teething and a bottle strike all at the same time. So I've been away. It's 10 o'clock 10:00 AM at the moment and I have been awake. Since 4:00 AM. With her, they've been shipped off to daycare now, but my 2 year old he has been a perfect sleeper from. The get go. Up until not too long ago, he has just, I think he's starting to have a little bit of a fear of darkness, along with some some night terrors and things like that. So when I got up to my my baby this morning at yeah, like 4/4/30, he was sitting in the toy room just hanging out.
Michael
Playing with his.
Carter
Looks nice and quietly and I don't know how long he'd been up. So he, I mean, he could have been. Up all night just hanging out, playing with his toys for all. I know. So yeah. Wait. Yeah, it's they always change. And you know, the older they get and the more independent they feel and everything like that, you you really just have to. It's it's it really is a roller coaster. You just hang on and just just ******* hope for the best close. Your eyes and hope. For the best. Yeah, you you.
Michael
You sort of do. Don't do and I think. I think all we can do is is parents is be there, be present to support but you know it's it's sort of interesting because I look at Maisie now and and we actually went and caught up with friends that have got a five week old over the weekend and we're driving home. It was about a three hour drive and we we just sort of said. I can't remember Maisie being that small, you know, and and and I I sort of reflected on that last night and I thought, you know, you know what, how quick does this journey go? Like if if you blink, you'll almost, you'll almost miss it. And it's like, yeah, there's so many contradictions in in parenting as well. You know, you have these incredible highs and then within that same. Interaction you have, you can have these incredible lows and and we're only at the toddler stage and I know you've you've you've sort of touched base with with parents that have got teenagers and I listen, listened to of all sorts of different sort of things around. And and one of the overwhelming things I hear is that little people, little problems, you know, you get to, to, to, to, let's call it adolescence and and childhood into adolescence. And they become bigger problem so. What you know? What what I really always try and do and what's there and I quite often speak about, is it's it's probably almost cliche that that. Really embracing, you know the the, the, the little things, these little milestones, these little developments and and and and and and understand that it's gonna be a **** show at time. But if you can be there and be present and and and embrace the the the **** times, there's there's plenty of sunny days as well, isn't there?
Carter
100% yeah. And and even embrace the sheer times, even embrace it all. It's it's all just an absolute beautiful mess. You know, when after my first my first and second I had postpartum depression. And in those times, in the early days when you know, I just had this little screaming baby and I. Even though I had such overwhelming love for her, I'd never dealt with having a relationship with someone who couldn't talk, you know, and who couldn't tell me what was wrong. And that was incredibly overwhelming and really, really disheartening to me. And I questioned myself all day, every day, and just sat there wishing and. And I was like, I'd say to my wife, I can't wait until she's old enough to talk, to tell us what the problem is. And now that my daughter's four and she can talk and tell us what's the problem is, I really, really, really look back and and just think I I wish I had, have embraced all of that ****. All of all of the doubt and everything. It really is part of the package and you really need to just look at everything as a whole and try to enjoy it the best you can. Because one day you'll look back and if you didn't embrace. That's it. You really will regret it. I wouldn't say regret. You'll you'll you'll wish you did things differently.
Michael
Yeah, no, look, thank. Thank you for sharing that. That aspect of yourself and I I think that that it's it's an unbelievable point as as well in the sense that yeah, and like it it it it's it's so it's so sickle isn't it our our mental health and it's it's so important yeah. And and I I remember being. Quite triggered early on by my Maisie crying and. I was triggered in a sense that very similar to you is that I've just, it was almost that they, they can't. What? What is it that? You need and. I I yeah, I've I've the, you know, sort of the more I've, the more I've gone on and I've I've remember having very similar conversations to you about how good is it going to be when she can actually communicate. And now she's communicating. And you go ohh remember how good it was when when she was just a a little BLOB and we were able to just play with her so joyfully on the, on the, on the floor, whatever it might be. But yeah, I I I remember Sarah saying something quite profound to me pretty early on, you know, just about like the the the struggle is so. The valid and I quite often used to be pretty hard on myself when I'd have moments where I would feel, you know, frustrated or or triggered. And we quite often sort of talk about the assault on the sensory system that that babies and toddlers do like, you know, they're they're there, they're there all the time. It's a 24 hour job. And and to just sit back and and be kind to yourself as well and. I don't always get it right, Carter and, and you're no doubt the same. I think humans, part of being a human is mistake making and and sitting in the the OR or not even necessarily sitting in but but being uncomfortable in certain situations and with certain feelings. But something I've I've really tried to work on is this concept of. Of self, love and self care as a parent. Because I'm gonna make 1000 and then that's probably even an understatement. Along the journey from now and until they're adults and maybe they're out of our our sort of constant care. But yeah, just trying to exercise and that that self love and. And you know, mistake making as as part of the whole process rather than getting into this cycle of, I made a mistake, therefore I'm a bad parent and it can be quite, quite, quite hard. And I'd I'd say probably my personality is a little bit self critical, so let's call it the cause and effect way of looking at things like. I didn't handle that situation. Male therefore I am a bad parent versus I didn't handle that situation. Station well, but next time what I'm gonna do is exercise a little bit more patience because she is telling me XYZ and that that's that's a constant challenge for me now and and and for Sarah for that matter too that, that we're doing this for the first time. And just because we're doing it for the first time doesn't mean we're gonna nail it the second time but but yeah. Trying to sort of change that inner dialogue in terms of the mistake making doesn't make you bad. It just makes you human and and and that's the the beautiful thing about parenting and and and for that matter. Then if I sort of think. About in the. Future Maisie when she's a child and when she's an adolescent, she's gonna make a lot of mistakes, too. So if I can be kind to myself now, maybe, just maybe, I'll be a little bit more receptive and kind to when she inevitably makes mistakes down the down the path as as.
Carter
Yeah, 100%, I think. I think that that life balance is is so critical. And I quite often go back to a saying that I've I've really tried to implement in my life a long over the years, even before parenthood, is that you really, really need those rainy days to appreciate the sunny ones. If you had sunny days, everyday life would be a little bit more mundane. You know, you need that balance and you need those. Bad with the good to truly appreciate the good and truly understand the bad. So yeah, the balance is really it's it's always a juggling act, but I. Think it's not so much the the thing, it's the reaction to the thing and the mistakes that you make that make you the parent. That you are. The fact that you are sitting there and at the end of the day thinking does this make me a bad parent makes you a good parent. Just thinking those things, the bad parent doesn't wonder.
Speaker
OK.
Carter
If they're a bad parent. And I have discussed that on other episodes, so I'm sorry in advance to the listeners. I always say on every episode I've said this on a previous podcast, so, but yeah, it it is. What it is?
Michael
It's it's interesting that that's coming. As as let's say, a relatively consistent theme, you know, though, the fact that you're having to repeat that probably suggests that that it's it's, you know it's a common feeling for for parents, isn't it that that are we doing a you know are we doing a good job and you know I think I think ultimately that's that's what parents want to think or know that they're doing. You know, myself and my wife talk a little bit about love, love, languages and and words of affirmation, but let's just call it feedback. I think it's what we're always seeking and. Because our toddler or baby doesn't have the capacity to tell us that we're doing a good job, quite often we we feel like because there's so much emotion in one day, like where you know, where do we sit on this spectrum of bad parent and good parent. And we want to be on that towards the good. But but you know, unless people are telling us directly, it can be a little bit of a hard thing to. To to read. So I find I find that that in itself sort of interesting and pretty profound really that that I think we're, you know, we're all chasing the same thing up we you know and I think This is why the. Podcast and the reason I wanted to come on here is because, you know, I listen to podcasts where you've got people that are in the public eye. But you know what about your average Joe that lives in Mansfield or lives in Sydney or wherever it might be that really, you know, that just trying to do the best with, let's call it a maybe a smaller amount of resources than than people that we might hear every single day. Better in the public eye. Yeah. So this is this is. Great to be here.
Carter
Yeah, it's it. It was. It really was one of the main actually, the main reason I I decided to start the podcast. I started going searching for podcasts because that's how I like to learn. I like to learn. Listening to things I I I first of all I looked for audiobooks and it was all by professionals, and I didn't really want that. I've got a psychiatrist and a psychologist. That's enough professional help that I need. I wanted to hear real stories from real parents and everything like that. And I just. I really couldn't find what I was looking for. And I'm sure there are. Pockets out there that do, you know, have similar podcasts to me, but they weren't really readily available. So I was like, you know what, it's pretty probably a pretty selfish reason reason to start a podcast because it was all for me. I just wanted to have these conversations and I thought I may as well record them. And if they can help even one. Other person that listens. Then that's just worth the world. So yeah, the fact that it is real parents, real situations and real stories and. You know with. 8 billion people in the world it it'll be shorter. Find someone who needs to hear it in that in that moment and will really, really kind of go. ****. I need to. I need to take care of myself a bit more. I need to step back and see the bigger picture and smell the roses and you know, hopefully this podcast can just be a little bit of a breath of relief. For someone and I'm glad that that you are that you've contributed, mate. It it takes a village and I'm. I'm hoping that with time, you know, this podcast can really become a village for for everyone that's in a little bit of need.
Michael
Yeah, yeah, no, it's it's, it's a great thing you're doing. And I think there's there's something really, my word of the day today. It's beautiful about, you know, a male and. And you sharing your story and and vulnerability because the statistics are sort of still centred. And as as males, we, we we still have a fair bit of trouble really sort of letting the guard down. So for you to to be sharing your story and your struggles as a male, I think there's there's, you know something in that that's that's just incredibly powerful as well. So yeah, you should be proud of of what of what you're doing just in terms of the the the story. Valley. But then the fact that you're giving other people the opportunity to to story share as well and those two things you know, I've done a fair bit of reading just on storytelling and. And I don't think we do enough of it now and I think maybe social media, I could sort of go into the reasons why, but but just the ability to share stories with, with with people is is, is ultra powerful and yeah, you should be so proud of of of. What you're doing?
Carter
Thank you mate, I really appreciate that. It's it's. I'm not great at receiving compliments or praise or anything like that. And and one of the one of the big things surrounding this is I have had such overwhelming support and quite amount of success with as as far as listenership goes in such a short amount of. Time and every. Day, honestly. It's it's yet again a double edged sword, you know, it's this beautiful thing and I I am infinitely proud of of myself, for being able to do this, you know, especially given my autism diagnosis. I'm not overly great with. Speaking it is something that makes me anxious, which you know this. Is a great. Way of working on all of that. Not only that, but there's a great deal of imposter syndrome that comes with all of it. You know, I wake up every morning and I think you're not deserving of this. You you're just like this insignificant person and you have. The right to be doing this and yeah, it's it's a really, really weird feeling and it's a vulnerable thing to to be able to discuss those things because even though I am such an advocate for mental health, I I was raised very much in that old school frame of frame of thought of like, you know, stiff upper lip and keep your chin up and, you know. And don't talk about their feelings or show their emotions, so it's always been a very internalised battle for me. But, you know, at at some stage I just have to say, **** it and just go for it and be. As authentic and true to myself as I possibly can, and I think this is, you know, even though I don't feel like I deserve it, this is my gift to the world. And I I really appreciate all of the feedback that I've I've been given.
Michael
It's it's a great word, authentic. And I was just thinking, as you were saying that too. I mean, how incredible for your kids to to to see this? I mean, we all, we all sort of live in the comfort zone, don't we? I think we love our creature comforts. And you know, as you're saying that the imposter syndrome like, I think it's so important that we share. This you know, with with our kids, you know, because they're it's it's a pretty full on concept isn't it and and you know all of these these terms that you just brought up there but but I just thought how incredible for your kids whenever they can consume this but probably even the conversations that you're having day today as a result of this podcast with them and that that's you know that that I think that's the essence of. Of of parenting is the resilient, resilient kids, I think, and and resilient adults as the result of what they see in their role models. And we ultimately aren't. We where we're their first role models. So what we what behaviours we. Exhibit what emotions we show, how we process and articulate those emotions. Essentially, we'll we'll rub off on them. So yeah, I just think it's incredible that in itself, I think sort of speaks volumes to the fact that you, what the job you're doing is. For for all of us adults that are consuming this as a podcast but, but also for for your kids that that get to look up at Dad and go. Yeah, you know, that's what I want to do. I wanna. I want to express myself. I want to be vulnerable and and. And all of these sorts of things.
Carter
Yeah, certainly. My, my kids are very, very proud of me. It's it's something that that just fills my heart every time, you know. Apart from every other responsibility I have, you know the podcast as it stands is taking up pretty much every waking moment I have. It's free time, but you know, if I'm in the car, I'm listening to previous episodes to figure out how I can do better or kind of hone my craft, so to speak. And you know, my kids will be in the back and they'll be going. Daddy, that's your. Voice on the radio. Why are you on the? Radio. Is this your pod? Passed and I said, yeah, baby, it's my podcast and she's. Like I like hearing you on the radio. And it's just little things like that or like I've got. I'll put a YouTube show on for the kids, and then there'll be like a Next up or like a preview or suggested videos and my podcast logo will be on. There and she'll be like dad, you're podcasts on. The TV so it's. It's pretty cool to kind of feel like a bit of a. Rock star to my kids and yeah. They they are proud of me as as little as they understand of, you know, the concept of the podcast and everything like that. I think in their own way, they understand that daddy's doing something a little bit more important. Than than what I would usually be doing, but I also work. In youth justice. So my daughter asks a lot about my job and she always tells me how proud she is of me that I. Go and look. After boys who need to have someone as as awesome as my daddy to look after them. So yeah, it's it's it's pretty cool. It really is. Pretty cool. And I think at the end of the day, even if the podcast was a flop, just having that with my kids is is just absolutely perfect in itself.
Michael
Yeah, just, yeah, yeah. Love. Love that. And I think, yeah, I I think the the the courage to try something with absolute no guarantee that it's going to work like that's you know that that that's courage personified and you know it's something I'm trying to work on a little bit as well I think I I want to. Bottle a little bit like you were doing now this this willingness to try things with no guarantee that it's going to reach extrinsic or even intrinsic, you know rewards because that's trying things is beautiful you know. Trying things is. Is where you'll develop self and you know if we can model that to our kids. I think yeah. If I speak before to, they're gonna be more resilient. Children, adolescents and and ultimately adults, which is what makes the world go around, I I believe anyway.
Carter
Yeah, 100%. Yeah, so that. That, that whole modelling of of taking a leap or, you know, just the first step is the scariest is something that I'm working on with my kids at the moment. You know, my daughter has quite a lot of fear when it comes to trying new things. She has a fear of, of, of feeling embarrassment. You know, she doesn't. Want to fail and? And Jesus, it's like looking in a mirror. And that was majority of my life. I I wouldn't try things and wouldn't put myself out there for fear of looking stupid or fully. For sure or anything like that and that really, really does stem from all the way back in my childhood. You know, I would get into some sort of new thing and. I I still have a memory of of being 16 and I was really into break dancing. I was super into like hip hop culture and all of that and I went and visited my father one weekend and I was showing him and my brother some some cool dance moves, you know? And my dad just laughed at me and said. Jesus, you're ******* stupid. And that sat with me for so long and. And in that moment, I don't think he will ever realise or understand that those words literally changed my entire life. It made me not want to try anything made me not want to. Like. It's just the feeling that that gave me just sucked. It just took all of the wind out of my sails and I don't think I really. I don't think I really kept doing it after that. And I just kind of went into this autopilot of just being like I'll just get through life. And it wasn't until I became a parent where I was like, OK, I I need to start doing things for myself because I don't want my kids. To have that self doubt like I did, I want them to be confident in everything they do. So you know my daughter, we went to the shops yesterday to I wanted to buy a new game. I like gaming. That's my self care and she really enjoys watching me game and I've tried to get her into it as well. She's doesn't have the the a hand, eye coordination or anything like that just yet. Which is fine. You know, it's all a learning curve, but she wanted this Super Mario gaming chair and I said, well, I'm not buying that for you right now because you don't really play games. I said, how about you? It's just you've just turned 4 for your 5th birthday. If you can show me in the next year that you not only want to play games, but are actively trying to practise to get better because she tells me she wants to be as good as me at games, I'm not great. I just like I don't play online or competitively or anything like that. It's literally just. Single player games where I don't have to talk to people and I can just zone out, but she really enjoys watching that and she thinks that's super cool. So I was like, well, if you if this is something that you want to do and you want that gaming chair, you need to work towards that. If you want to play games, I'm totally fine with you playing games within reason. You're not going.
Michael
To sit there.
Carter
For hours on end every day and do it but. If you love the the overall message was if you love something and something out there interests you, you need to work at it. You don't try it once, realise you know good at it and then never do it again. That's not how life works. You need to practise the things. You love to get good at the things you love, so you can keep loving them and she understood that. So she's already this morning. She was like, can I play some games? I'm like, no, it's. 4:00 AM don't. Yeah, I think it goes for everything in life. Kids, kids are sponges. They're not only sponges, but they're mirrors. You know? Like they will mirror. Everything that you do and they will soak up everything that you say and I think it is our job as parents to not only like, accept that and just be like, OK, well, you're going to turn out a mini version of me because I am your main source of information through to or through the. School like you. Through to school, and then even further through to adolescence and and especially with their emotional intelligence and things like that. It's all you and that's great. But you also need to make sure that you are modelling for them to not only become you but better versions of you.
Michael
It's it's. Yeah, it's it. It's a great. It's a great point and a great message. I I I quite often. And always sort of come back to at what point do do we start to become influenced by by the outside and sort of what I mean by that is I think about Maisie. When she learned to roll and then when she learned, learned to crawl, and then ultimately probably the big one for me was when when she learned to it to to walk and the amount of mistakes. Be made to to sort of get to the point, let's use walking as the best example. You know, it was probably a three to four month process, but the the, the mentality and this is the beauty about about, you know toddlers babies, is that there's still he was old almost that the amount of time she fell over. I I I can't remember but she kept getting up and and she wasn't influenced by the fact that she couldn't do it because there was this. You know that that piece that it's like, alright, I'm not judged. I'm whatever it is. I'm, I've. I've gotta get this. And and I quite often think. And as I said, I'm a school teacher and I sort of say that I'm working with kids from year seven through the year 10 and I really see this, this social. Hierarchy element, you know really impact on their willingness to try. And I quite often think like I, I I go to school and I'm in this environment where there's so much riding on it all. That's a perception socially. And then I come back and I see my beautiful little daughter just learning how to walk. And she's tripped over and cried. And we've got peers and. But then we put her back down and she has to go again at. At what point do we lose that? You know that that all the sudden like you made the mention about your break dancing? That was obviously what someone said, you know, someone that you you care a lot about or was an important person in your life. But just this concept of of never losing and and I think it's us modelling it to go, I suck at that. You know I'm not. Good at that, but. I'm going to. Show you that. It doesn't matter. That's OK. You can keep trying. It's it's, you know, it's really complex. But, but that was the real, you know, these two contrasting situations and and all they sort of come back to. You know why? Like what? Why? Why do we stop? Why do we why do? We self preserve. When it comes to trying something that we're not great at and what's my role, I guess in that process of of trying to buck the trend, knowing full well that there's there's influences outside of us at some point in time that will modify or change behaviour. But but what can I do right now in terms of modelling and what can we do as parents, right, right now?
Carter
Yeah, certainly. Well, I I can answer to some extent what we can do right now. My daughter, for instance, probably about six months ago was the first time I had ever witnessed embarrassment as an emotion for her. She gave something a try, didn't work out the way she wanted it to, and I kind of had a little chuckle. My chuckle was instant it it wasn't directed at her. It wasn't negative in any aspect, but she bottled mate. She curled up. She put her hands in her, her her head in her hands, and she started crying. And. In that moment, I was like, don't be silly. Don't be silly. You know, Dad wasn't laughing at you, but I really had to stop myself and go. Just because that's not what I meant, that does not diminish how she feels and how she has perceived what I sent towards her. And I really had to stop. And I sat down next to her and I said, you are entitled to feel the way you feel. You are safe, you are loved, and when you are ready, we can talk about it. And we went. We sat down once she calmed down a little bit. And we talked about it and I explained to her what embarrassment was, and now she has a pretty solid grasp of that emotion, which I think is just super special, so I think. Think I think that the biggest takeaway is just really, really listen to them. If they're telling you something, even if it's not accurate, they're really telling you something. Look behind the words.
Michael
Yeah. And and I think quite often too, you know, sometimes our trauma and our experience can get in the way of that as well. Can't you know how how we, how we were taught to handle embarrassment, for example, or how we saw that, that how our embarrassment was handled from people that were had, let's call it the responsibility to sort of teach us through that. Motion as well. So and you know, I love that because I think it, you know ultimately it's the one thing I'm I'm always working on is just trying to be present not only for for Maisy, but for all of the people in my my world just to listen and and not necessarily listen to always just answer and come up with what I think is the perfect response. But just actually listen to. Synthesise and just go, you know. What I'm I'm I'm. Here. And that's gonna be my great challenge. I think in a really busy world where we want instant gratification, we want to come up with a an outcome immediately that can be quite, quite difficult as well. But just just listening rather than than responding I think. Is is just what I love I love about.
Carter
That, yeah, certainly. It's it's it really is just all about learning for us, for them, for everyone. You know, no one has a a guide or a handbook it it's all a day by day thing. You'll get things wrong. You'll get things right. You'll celebrate, you'll grieve, you'll head some. It really does teach you to, really. It's the ebbs and flows of life, not only your life, but their lives. And you know you're responsible for that life as well. It's massive, massive undertaking, but super rewarding. It, yeah. Is. Is there anything you wish to to add or wrap up with before we before we finish up, Michael?
Michael
No. Yeah, no, just just, just thank you for for giving me the the opportunity. I've ticked off the bucket list item today too, and that was something I always wanted to do was was be a guest on the podcast. So you've. You've given me you've you've been part of me kicking off a a big list item. So. So. Yeah. Thank you. I I I think it's I probably didn't express just how big it was for me, you know, to to come onto a public forum and sort of talk about, you know I guess some of our experiences but but more broadly you know to sort of share a little bit of myself. I've I've spoken about the comfort zone that's probably where I live a little bit. You know, at what we've sort of touched on a little bit is is modelling that willingness to step outside it every now and then. And although Maisie may not ever hear this, maybe she will and and be able to comprehend what it's sort of all about. I I think it allows me internally to go. Yeah, that's a that's a big step. And therefore I'm I sort of know in myself that I'm modelling. Good behaviours. So thank you so much.
Carter
You're more than welcome, mate. Thank you very much. It's it's an amazing thing to be able to, to come on and be vulnerable, especially as a man. And who may or may not have been raised to not be that vulnerable. So. So thank you from the bottom of my heart. We definitely need a lot more male represented representation in this space, especially for parents. It's something that will help other people immensely. And it's something that hopefully you'll be able to walk away from thinking. Well, that that's super cathartic. I feel a little bit more healed. I feel a little bit more. My bucket's a bit more full and you can kind of. Some of our conversations and and pieces and apply them to your life and you may be a little bit better for it. I know I will. Every conversation that I've had so far has left me feeling a little bit more full and a little bit more prepared and willing to to be the best I can be for my kids.
Michael
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's all we all we. Can be in. This role. So yeah, same. Thank you.
Carter
No worries, mate. Well, you have a great day. Thanks again for coming on.
Michael
Thanks Kara.
Carter
No worries. Bye.