A Problem Shared is a Problem Halved: Finding Balance in Motherhood

Welcome to another episode of The Touched Out podcast. Today we are joined by Ali. In this episode, we'll explore the challenges and triumphs of motherhood, focusing on finding balance and overcoming postpartum depression.

Our guest today, Ali, is short for Alexandra. She's a mother to two children, Claudia, who's 3, and Georgina, who's 1. Ali is married to Andrew, who serves as a police officer.

Journey Through Clinical Depression

• Ali opens up about her diagnosis with clinical depression in 2010, shedding light on her personal experience and the stigma surrounding mental health.

Challenges of Motherhood

• Ali shares her experiences dealing with the challenges of motherhood, including colic, pelvic floor trauma that left her unable to walk or run, and the isolation she felt due to her husband's night shifts and discomfort in sharing her struggles with friends and family.

Reaching Out

• Ali recalls a pivotal moment when she realized she needed help and requested a mental health care plan and anti-depressants from her GP, highlighting the importance of seeking intervention when needed.

Finding Balance

• Ali discusses her journey towards recovery, which involved a combination of medication, regular therapy, and seeking help from a sleep consultant, Kate Gillan. She emphasizes the importance of setting realistic expectations and finding balance.

PANDA

• Ali shares her involvement with PANDA (Perinatal Anxiety and Depression Australia) as a community champion and how they supported her after the birth of her second baby.

COVID Lockdowns

• Ali reflects on the impact of COVID-19 lockdowns on her family, with her children becoming afraid of anyone other than her and her husband.

Small Habits

• The importance of self-care is discussed, with Ali sharing how small habits and mindfulness played a significant role in her early parenthood journey, from buying a comfortable robe to enjoying a hot drink during night feeds.

Information for Expectant Parents

• Ali advocates for better information availability to expectant parents about topics like tongue ties, colic, and sleep regressions before they occur, rather than waiting until they become challenges.

Head to the podcast Instagram and hit the bio link to sign up for preorder today.

Transcript

Acknowledgement

We would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of this land. We pay our respects to the elders, past, present and emerging, but they hold the memories, the traditions and the culture of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people across the nation.

Carter

Warning this podcast contains explicit language and discusses sensitive topics related to mental health, childhood trauma, birth, trauma, abuse, miscarriage, and suicide. Listener discretion is advised. If you find these subjects distressing or triggering, we recommend taking caution and considering whether to proceed with. Listening. If you or someone you know is struggling, please reach out to a mental health professional or a trusted individual for support. Your well being is our priority. Welcome to another episode of the Touched Out Podcast. In this episode, we'll explore the challenges and triumphs of motherhood, focusing on finding balance and overcoming postpartum depression. Our guest today, Allie, is short for Alexandra. She's a mother of two children, Claudia, who's three, and Georgina, who's one ally, is married to Andrew. Who serves as a police officer. Ally opens up about her diagnosis with clinical depression in 2010, and her experiences dealing with the challenges of motherhood, including colic and pelvic floor trauma that left her unable to walk or run, and the isolation she felt during Melbourne's COVID lockdown. We discussed the importance of enjoying the little things and how ally, seeking support and grounding herself. Were paramount in her mental health. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Hit like and share on the podcast platform of your choice so the podcast can continue to find its way into the ears of new listeners. You can also find us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and YouTube at Touched Out Podcast for those who wish to support the show in other ways, you can also donate via PayPal. You can find social media and donation links as well as information from today's episode. In the episode description, thank you for being part of my podcast family. Let's keep this journey going to.

Carter

Today we have Allie. Allie is 35 and she's got three and one year old daughters. How you doing?

Ali

Allie. Yeah, good. Thanks.

Carter

Beautiful. Thank you so much for taking the time to be. With me today.

Ali

Thank you for. Having me, you're more than.

Carter

Welcome. So how about we start off with just a little bit about yourself and? Your family and your. History and we'll go from there.

Ali

Yeah, sure. So I'm Ellie phone. I'm Alexandra. I'm a mum of two girls. Claudia, who's three. And Georgina, who's one? My husband Andrew. And I'm. A Kiwi, as you can probably hear. I've been in Melbourne 10 years and I call it home and I'm a physio. It's my professional background.

Carter

Awesome. And for anyone listening overseas, A Kiwi is a New Zealand native beautiful so you're a physio. How long have you been in that role?

Ali

I graduated in 2009. So what's that 14? Years coming up.

Carter

Definitely a cool job.

Ali

Yeah, I love it. I I'm lucky to do something. That I really enjoy. And I'm lucky enough to be a part owner in the clinic that I work for in port. Melbourne as well.

Carter

Very good and I understand your husband is a police officer, is that? Right.

Ali

Yes, yes, that's right.

Carter

Yeah. Beautiful. How long has he been?

Ali

Doing that for, he's been doing that for coming up 10 years. Yeah. So. He he's in a a highly specialised role within Victoria police. Doing a lot of. Jobs that go. On behind the scenes, he has quite a stressful job. He's pretty good at Compartmentalising. His work cannot bring it home with him. But. It is something was in the back of my mind that he has pretty intense day to day work.

Carter

Yeah, certainly. So why don't you share a little bit about what drew you to coming on the podcast today?

Ali

Yeah, sure. So one of my colleagues who lives up your way, I think in regional Vic, she actually heard about you locally and told me to get in touch. So a little bit of background. I was diagnosed with clinical depression in 2010, went on antidepressants back then. And I think they probably helped with retrospect. But it was very much a band aid, you know, to sort of up my mood. But it didn't. Really address any of the root causes. Those moved to Melbourne in 2013 had periods on and off tablets during that time. Great support of boyfriend dance and her husband, who's, you know, been really a rock through everything. 2020 February 17th, Claudia was born, had a great pregnancy bit of. And general anxiety, I suppose. I've had quite a few friends that had. Really, unfortunately had still births. Three of them leading up to Claudia being born, so I was pretty apprehensive until she was in my arms. And yeah, that was. February 2020. 2-3 weeks later, we went into full lockdown. I'm lucky enough to have great in-laws here, but none of my family lives here. And even though I did have my in-laws an hour away, they couldn't visit, did locked down. I had a beautiful baby girl, but she had shocking colour and she screamed every night from 5:00 PM. Till midnight, she was never a great sleeper. I was lucky to not have any issues feeding her, but I had a lot of pelvic floor trauma following my delivery, so I couldn't even really walk, let alone run, which is my thing. I'm a runner and I felt really trapped. Really, really trapped. It was a very dark time in my life. It still feels uneasy for me to talk about it now because a lot of my family. A lot of my friend. We weren't Privy to what I was going through. I was really ashamed. I felt really undeserving of this baby. You know, a lot of my friends and my family had seemingly had babies and managed really easily. And I just thought, how come I'm finding this so hard? Like I've run a full marathon. I, you know. I have a share in a business. I do really well in my job. You know all these things that I'd sort of ticked off in life and then to me becoming a parent. In my mind, I was going to excel like it was another thing I was gonna do really well being that real type A, you know, personality and yeah, I. I really struggled the first three or four months were tired, difficult, blur. I think COVID and Melbourne's harsh lockdowns definitely fit into that, but to be honest, I think just the massive lifestyle change of going from being able to do whatever, whenever on my terms to being. What I found to be trapped at home with a really unsettled baby, my husband working night shift and no one around to help me, and no one knowing what I was going through was a really, really dark time.

Carter

Yeah, certainly it would have been incredibly difficult, especially with the lockdowns and you know, you had previously, you know your community at your disposal and all of a sudden that was kind of forcefully taken away with with the Melbourne lockdowns. So yeah, certainly, certainly sounds like you've had a. Time. I'm very thankful that you are happy to talk about it today. I think talking about it and raising more awareness for those types of things is integral to moving forward as a society, especially in the. Health space. So how did you get through those darkest days? What did you find worked for you? Did you find some sort of groove in, you know, having some self care? And what? What did you implement in your life that got you to where you are today?

Ali

Yeah, I was. I could have a a really good friend, Sophie. She listened to this, who had been through some really low mental health periods herself, even though she hadn't had children. She and I had only known this this friend, for maybe not even a year at this point, but she was. There for me through second, then and I'll forever be grateful that she was, as I said, I I told so few people because I was mortified. And and no. One was even popping in to see me, so you know I could FaceTime people and put on this front. But you know, I remember having a midwife call in and just. Bursting into tears as. Soon as she opened the door. So it was like face to face. Yeah. So I had this really good friend. I had a very supportive husband at my GP. Check up at six weeks. I remember clearly driving into Port Melbourne where my GP was. About a 20 minute drive and just thinking to myself, I wish I could go back to my old life here in Port Melbourne where we used to live. It was a really horrible feeling driving with this brand new baby and. Just thinking I I don't. I don't want this life. This is not what I signed up for. It wasn't meant to be this hard and this painful and saying to my GP, I need an intervention and I need it now. I need a mental health plan. I need antidepressants. I need help. I'm not doing well and I'm. I'm literally my head is. Just above the water. And no one knows and I can't tell. Anyone. And she was great, Super compassionate GP. They got me onto Zoloft, which was one I hadn't taken. I had to come off it pretty quickly because it made my postpartum night sweats tenfold. Mm-hmm. And so when I was sleeping, I was waking up drenched. So the sleep deprivation was a lot worse. So I had to come off those. And go on another one and. In the meantime, my autoimmune thyroid condition, Graves' disease, went through the roof and that's associated with things like anxiety, weight loss, low milk supply. So that was throwing in around six weeks, which made everything feel harder again. And yeah, basically I I. Went back to see my psychologist arcing anti Natalie Corolla Belton who's wonderful. And just she really helped me to just decompress, I suppose, and actually just lowered the bar of what I was expecting in a day. You know, I still have the same expectations after giving birth as I did before, you know, Immaculate house, healthy food, exercise walk. Dog, you know, washing done and she just really help me figure out what could actually what I could let go of. Mm-hmm. What needed to be done and what could be done later or what could be delegated to, you know, other people. And really, it was only my husband because we weren't allowed visitors. Yeah. So between the the medication. The psychology that got me feeling like I was just slightly more under control. We also engaged a sleep consultant, Kate Gillen. I'll give her a bit of a. Plug because she's a legend. At the whatever the earliest is that you could get her 12 weeks, I think. And for any parents out there who are struggling with sleep, I cannot recommend her enough. She did it well over FaceTime because we couldn't have anyone in. The house and I went from. One to two hour wakings to, you know, one feet overnight, 3 hour days sleep sort of thing. And I don't know, Carter, if you had the same thing with your kids, the sleep or lack of and the effect on your mood, but I can't even tell you a good night's sleep. I've taken it for granted for 30 something years. And then when you don't get it consistently, it is really, really dangerous to your health. Yeah. So that's my other tippers. Engage in the sleep consultant like you'd never. Try and you'd never try and fix a broken bone on your own. You'd see a surgeon you'd never try and you know, give yourself a filling. You'd see a dentist. So why would you try and fix something like sleep? That is so complex. That's that's how I consider it anyway.

Carter

Yeah, certainly I was incredibly lucky. My wife and I, with our first two. Our first two slept brilliantly from around six weeks. I think they were sleeping 12 hours unassisted throughout the night and the day sleeps were pretty good as well. And then it all fell apart for the third, and she's nine months now, and she still doesn't sleep very well at all. And I think that was the hardest or still is the hardest thing with with our third babies. We had those first two. So we were lulled into a false sense of security. And you know, we were like, this isn't. Too horrible, mind you. There were other challenges for the first two. I got hit with postpartum depression for the other two, and I got so caught up in worrying about what type of parent I would be and how I would provide and what my roles would look like. And my past traumas and whatnot coming into play and all of the self doubt and the anxiety just overflowed my bucket a little bit too much for those. But I think if those two didn't sleep well, added on top of all of my other kind of internalised issues, I I would have been an absolute mess. So I am very thankful that they at least chopped me up for that.

Ali

You're you're allowed to save you somewhere. I think in parenting.

Carter

Yeah, 100%. I think it all just comes down to be kind to yourself, especially in those early days of being a first time. Parent which leads me to my next question about Panda. Panda is an organisation in Australia, stands for perinatal anxiety and depression Australia. Both of us are now Community champions. You've been a community champion for a while and as of two days ago I am now a proud representative of Panda.

Ali

That one.

Carter

Which is very exciting stuff. There'll be more info on that down the track, but why don't you tell me a little bit about your understanding of panda, how you became involved with them and we'll go. From there.

Ali

Yeah. So I didn't even know Pandora existed when I had Claudia, I had no idea. I think I was just in such a blur and and just one foot in front of the other sort of thing I knew about beyond blue and back in 2013, I did some fundraising for beyond blue when they were doing like. A BBQ. Fundraiser. So I've been aware of other. Organisations that support mental health lifeline, that sort of thing. Penda. I've never heard of. When I had Georgina March last year. I felt a. Lot better prepared going into parenthood again, but then you had the challenge of having a 2. Year old and. Sassy, fiery. You know, I'm sure they all are. But two year old that requires a lot of attention and entertainment and lucky Georgie was a really pretty chilled baby. And if there is a thing. She slept a lot better. She was more setter, which she took a. Dummy, which was a a lifeline, you know. I'm sure it won't be. Down the track trying to wean her off it. But you know when she was little, it was really helpful. But when she was, maybe she was born March last year. So maybe June of last year. I don't know what it was. Maybe just winter being stuck at home, bugs going around daycare. So having to pull Claudia. Out for a. Few days I just. Felt myself sliding again. I was on citalopram at that point, I think. Yeah. I was so and. Present. I didn't check you on up my dose. I thought maybe there was something else I could do other than change. That dose was pretty heavy on the dose I was on and I didn't want the side effects that come from upping A dose. So then I consider go back to my psych, but try to get an appointment. Was really hard with COVID. And then I stumbled across Panda. I don't even know what I put into Google. Maybe someone had mentioned. I actually can't recall, but I called them one day. I was on my. Own with Georgie and. I can't even remember what had happened, but I just. I felt myself slipping and I thought, no, I need to talk to someone, but I'm not prepared to wait five weeks to get in to see my like. I was actually on hold for 45 minutes and they did say, you know, they could, they could call back. I actually thought I've gone out for a walk while I was on hold and just a bit of fresh air and sunshine. I felt a bit better. I thought, you know what? I'm actually going to. Call my sister in law and she actually came around and visited me instead. So I actually never spoke to anyone at Panda, but it was just that awareness of the the the fact that they existed in what they. Those and then, yeah, that sort of got me interested in looking into their website and their resources, particularly as a physio like the resources for health professionals. We have a lot of parents and new and expectant parents coming into the clinic. We do a lot of mums. And Bubs, polities, for example. And. You know. With the, are you OK day? I've been really. I think really good at asking people, you know. How's your mental health? But then when they say, oh, it's not great, which is often the case with. New mums, it's. Like ohh OK where do I direct these people? GP maybe, but not everyone has a GP that they always see or GP that they who like it's just who's. Service available, so having those resources online for me as a physio have been really valuable. I'm often directing people to panda. I've also implemented some changes in our clinic and how we address mental health for anybody coming in. So regardless of whether you've come in with. A broken ankle. Back pain. Tennis elbow. We now ask everybody how their mental health is and what their support network looks like. And actually just yesterday we had one of my clients come into the clinic and give us a talk on. OK, so you've got these questions, these prompts, what do you do if someone says no, I'm not OK. For new and expected parents, that's obvious to me. Direct them to panda, but for everybody else that's not necessarily relevant. So you know, just giving, giving us some ideas of what to do when someone says no, I'm actually not doing too well and and checking them with them and knowing where to direct them. Yeah. So I became a community. I think it was September last year I actually missed the email that said you've been approved, it went to my junk somehow and in December I said hey, just wondering if I any luck with my application and they said, Oh yeah, you've been approved for like, 3 months. Yeah, it was kind of funny. And I had my first face to face venture with them. In March, I think it was for the pregnancy baby and Children's Expo. So I met few of the girls there. Sadly, I can't make the dinner that everyone's having next in two weeks time in Melbourne cause I'm going to Mary Poppins at night. But yeah, I'm really looking forward to more face to face roles and just. Getting out there and promoting Pandora and how it can help and all the different aspects from resources to, you know, the hotline and and everything in between.

Carter

Yeah, certainly. I myself became aware of Panda when our our maternal child health nurse referred me to panda after our second baby because, you know, she came around to the house and and did a little bit of a mental health check up. And luckily I am pretty comfortable in putting my hand up and saying I'm I'm not doing the best and I knew that the feelings from the first baby had come back and I kind of was a little bit more emotionally intelligent that I was able to kind of step outside of all of my feelings and go, OK, this is probably what this is. So I was like, yeah, I'm not doing too well. You know, I had postpartum with my first baby, but I didn't really understand it back then. I didn't know that postpartum could hit men. So I got a referral to panda. I never ended up utilising that because through my work I do have the luxury of a clinical health practitioner at my disposal, which is is is super, super valuable resource. And her and I get along absolutely swimmingly. She's the best psychologist.

Speaker 3

Well then.

Ali

This year are. You in Qatar?

Carter

I work in. Youth justice. So it's a pretty high stress. Role but.

Ali

I'd hope you'd have some sort of mental health support and. A job like that.

Carter

We do, yes. And I work night shift. So I'm also lucky enough to not only have that at my disposal for free, but because she operates during daytime hours. I also get paid overtime for seeing her, which is some super awesome. Yeah. So I I I I'm lucky enough to get paid a little bit of extra money to talk about. Feelings. But yeah, that's how I first heard about Panda, and since then I've done a little bit more digging. But it kind of fell by the wayside until this podcast started, and I started thinking about, you know, the message that I wanted to, you know, send out into the world. And I thought, well, Panda is a great resource. And I I feel like any of the guests that are willing to come on here to talk about their own mental health would certainly do well in. Knowing who panda is because yeah, I was the same as you'd never heard of it. Never heard of it at all. I'd heard of beyond Blue and Lifeline and all of those types of things which are also great resources. But to have an organisation that's specific to. Perinatal mental health. I believe they they take referrals for the 1st 12 months of of parenthood. Doesn't matter if you're a first time parent or. 8th time parent. They take all of those referrals, which is yeah, super super amazing so. I'm very, very.

Ali

I think your story is a good example of that. Actually, you know, you're saying the even just, you know, with your first two kids sleeping really well and the third not. It's it's like just because you've had one baby, that doesn't mean that you've got it covered for the subsequent kids, you might. And I think people think ohh, but you've had one and you got through that, so you'll be fine. It's no like I'm a few years older and maybe more tired and that baby's different. And maybe your finance, financial situations change. Where what situations changed or you know, maybe the other parent, if you're lucky enough to have, you know, two of you. Pro parenting. Maybe their work's changed, so I think it's an assumption people make that well. You know, you're OK for the first. One so surely. You'll be fine from here and I think. That's one of the. Most detrimental assumptions that you can make about someone is is just thinking. Well, yeah, you've done it before. You'll be fine. You know what? To expect it's not.

Carter

Yeah, certainly. And and you know, that's everyone's stories change daily, you know, and everyone perceives things differently. And the way in which I've perceived life or any sort of outside stimuli with two children may be drastically different to what I'm emotionally capable of handling. When I've got 3.

Ali

Like high school.

Carter

So I I think it's it's a really important resource even if you don't feel like you're at the stage where you need to kind of look for outside help, I really do recommend just giving that call and and just workshopping those those thoughts and those emotions that you have in order for you to better process and learn and figure things out a little bit. Better and just just finding ways to be kind to yourself, I think are the most important things.

Ali

The good thing with Panda as well is they have things like they've just launched SMS for dads, so I'm not sure if you're aware of that, but you know it's a a service where you can sign. Up for free check. Text messages specifically for dads, and I think that's really cool because there is a. Lot of focus on mums. Which is great and deserving. But you know, I think you're you're a role model in this field, Carter, because a lot of men suffer in silence and they don't feel like they can talk about it, particularly when it comes to perinatal, because maybe you think, well, I wasn't the one that had to give birth or I'd have to carry that baby or. I'm not the one who's going to feed the baby, you know, if the. Baby's breastfed and. It it makes no difference like you're still a parent. Equally, you're still going through a massive life change and potentially there's more pressure on you with things like your work because you may be down to 1 income for a period of time. So I really commend you for doing what you're doing and and putting your hand up.

Carter

Thanks mate. I appreciate it. It it it certainly has been a recurring theme with some of my male guests is that post birth, they kind of feel the need to take on the protector role and be the Rock You know make sure the. That mum and Bubs are all happy and healthy as as well as they can, and they certainly let their own self care and their own mental health slide and kind of go by the wayside. It doesn't take priority when it absolutely needs to. What they don't realise is shouldering all of the problems for everyone around you. Just. Compacts your own you know, self identity, self worth, self-esteem, everything to do with your own personal journey and. Quite often it it leads to to men just not feeling the best that they can feel, and it impacts everyone around them in the end as well. So yeah, certainly really, really important to to not only allow yourself to be that rock because I think that is an incredibly important role, especially for the mental health of mum, but also just be comfortable. Telling your partner or telling your friends you know, I I understand that this is how. I feel my role needs to be, but I'm not doing the best within myself and that's impacting the role in which I've taken, you know, has to be your support. Yeah, super important. Super important and that's why I am really, really, really proud to, to be involved with Panda, the text text service for dads is incredibly important. I think it's an amazing opportunity for dads to be able to reach out to someone not in person and not through phone call. I think that would probably be a little bit daunting for. People who aren't the most comfortable with expressing their their feelings and kind of being vulnerable in that way. So text messaging is a great way of being able to kind of take yourself outside of that vulnerability and and maybe compartmentalise those those issues but be able to express them still. So yeah, great, great service. You can read more about that on the Panda website, I believe.

Luke

Hey, guys. It's Luke here. Some of you may know me from TikTok as AKA Luke Andrew for season two of the Touched Out podcast. I'm teaming up with my good friend Carter to bring you loops mindful matters. Where I'll be choosing a question or topic from my TikTok family and having a yarn about it on here. So if you want to ask a question, suggest a topic or I've even recently posted a question that I haven't been able to answer. Jump back over to my tick tock if you haven't already pressed that follow button and shoot me a comment. Hey, guys. Welcome back to another episode of the Touched Out Podcast. Today's question comes from Belinda Myers and it's congratulations. My question is when you self medicated, was there things you could tell yourself to convince yourself that taking the tablets or substance I guess was working and Simply put the answer to that is yes, heaps of ****. I used to tell myself. Especially if you are a a functioning alcoholic or let's say a functioning drug addict. At the end of the day, there are lots of things you can tell yourself or will tell yourself, or I did, in particular to justify the fact that I needed to keep doing them or why I was doing them was OK and why I referenced, I guess the the functioning part is because whilst you're still holding down a job, keeping the house clean. Keeping the kids, you know, fed and clothed, it's really easy to tell yourself. But I still go to work. It's OK that I have a drink in the afternoon because I still get up in the morning. It's OK that I have. I smoke a few cones at at night time because I've also made sure that the kids have been fed. The Bills have been paid and we have a roof over our head, so it's really easy. When you're when you're drinking or doing drugs to justify it by going, I guess to a worst case scenario, you know you, you're picturing somebody who has drunk themselves into losing their job, losing their family, losing their. Home might be couch surfing and no different to somebody who's doing that many drugs that the world has fallen apart. So it's very easy to go. But I'm not doing that. I'm not the guy that avoids responsibility, probably responsibility being the key word there. Because when you think worst case scenario, a lot of addicts will do whatever they can to avoid responsibility. So I used to tell myself well, as long as I'm there for my children, I'm there for my partner. I'm paying the bills. It is OK that I'm doing these things. So I would justify fueling my body. With, with, with. Debt because at the end of the day, rent was still paid. There was always food on the table and and the kids in a sense, didn't even know I was still present for them. But in reality not as present as you could be. But I feel like you can only tell yourself these things for so long. Before you start realising just how much damage you're actually doing to yourself, and I think once the kids come along that that. Trying to, you know, really starts highlighting it for yourself, the guilt, the guilt builds up. And as it builds up, you still, as a functioning addict, get to put your mask on and you go out and you portray this highlight reel. This better version of yourself to the people at work, even to your children and other people and your family member because you're not always doing these things in front of them, I guess. So it does continue to build and you will still always. Lean on the fact that you know, I'm essentially from the outside looking in. I'm doing really well, but from the inside you know yourself, you know yourself. It's it's like almost like a cancer. That guilt that starts eating you. Live that you are not who you are portraying to be, because you're not doing it with the with the correct with the correct fuel essentially. And once you start having kids, it really, really starts to weigh on you because you know that even though from the outside looking in you're doing alright, your health won't last forever. Your your health doesn't lie. You can't convince your health that what you are doing is OK. Hey, because your health is the one that lets you know that you can bluff everybody else, but you can't bluff me, mate. And and Father time waits for nobody. So I guess once you lose that, that selfishness or or the reason that drove you or or motivated you to even pick up these substances in the first place. That that's kind of when you realise that? You're you're only bluffing yourself and these things that were once convincing you. It's OK that no longer exist and and when you're left with. Facing the reality of what you've become, then you, you, you have your, your, your rock bottom moment. You. You don't essentially have to lose your house or your job or your family because you've lost your confidence in yourself. I I think that's what I lost the confidence in myself and I lost the ability, convinced to convince myself that I was OK and that I was going to be OK and the thought of these children need me around forever started out weighing the thought of that I can get by doing this. So eventually, like you, you, I mean, they're the things I would I would. Say to convince myself, but in time I couldn't. And when you can't convince yourself you're ******, you have to face reality. So you gotta do it for the. Right. Reasons and I think looking in your children's eyes and just seeing how much you love them and they love you is is all the reason in the world. To not even attempt to convince yourself anymore. But I still have that devil on one shoulder that that is in my ear every day and tries to convince me. I think at the end of the day I just found the right reasons not. To listen. To it again. Thank you for that question. I am. Yeah, I hope I've answered that as best as I could.

Carter

So can you discuss the importance of that social support for new mothers and how it's played a role in your own experience post lockdown.

Ali

Yeah, sure. I think it's absolutely invaluable and I feel like I had a very unusual first maternity leave period. You know, going essentially. From hospital with a new baby, I think we had two weeks of normality before we were in the world's, literally the world's harshest lockdown Melbourne had. So yeah, I I often wonder whether, had I had a baby outside of locked down and then had one and locked down how I would have found that I I don't know because I don't. I didn't have the contrast. The one good thing about lockdown. If if I can say this it. Sounds terrible but. I was able to get Claudia in a pretty good routine early on because we did nothing right. Right. We never left the house. But that came back to bite me. When. She was. I don't even know how old we came. Out of locked down and. She was petrified of anyone that wasn't myself or my husband, because she wasn't used to strangers. You know, we if we went to a cafe, she was like, what is this place? Like? Just. Yeah. So. And I know a lot of people use the term like COVID baby loosely. But I think it's the real thing. Because they didn't have that exposure to being socialised early on, so coming back to your question, I think it's so invaluable. I'm a real. People person I think even if you're not, you still need support and I. Think one of the. Biggest things that mums and parents get wrong is trying to be the martyr trying. To be it all do. It all have. It all without asking for help. So the second time around with Georgie, we're out of lockdown to be fair. But I was much better at asking for help, or if people would say, you know, I'll pop in for a coffee. Like, can I bring anything if I needed something? I'd say, hey, yeah. Do you mind? Picking up some. Nappies, please. Mm-hmm. You know I'll pay. You back, but I I've. I've run out and that'd be a big help, whereas I don't think I would have done. That first time, yeah, and I think. Your mum's group. Your mother's group, if you're lucky enough. To have a good. 1 can be a really, really valuable asset. I'm lucky to have an amazing mother's group locally. We still all keep in touch. In fact, I think our group someone was messaging something yesterday about toilet training regressions or something. So we we've got 3 year olds in that group now and a lot of us have gone on to have. And babies. So you know, if you are lucky enough to have a good mum scoop, that can be a really valuable thing because everyone's going through the same thing at the same time. Time and one thing I found is when friends have had babies, you know, recently and they're asking questions about sleep schedules with newborns or you know, when do you change from this formula to that formula? And I can't remember even though it was only a year ago that Georgie was born, I cannot remember. Those things about a new baby, whereas your mum's scoop everyone's got, you know, maybe there. Some babies, few weeks old or younger than yours, but all around the same age, and I think you know it, it can be easy to look back on the days with the new baby, with roast into glasses. And thank. Ohh gosh, that was so blissful and. Yet I know it. Wasn't, you know, but. If you went back and looked at my camera roll, you'd think. Ohh my gosh wow. What a. You know, she looks so happy. So yeah, social support is huge. It's massive and I agree with you about the SMS thing and that not everyone is up for talking about mental health or their mum's group or their friends or even with their family, depending on how comfortable all those people are with those conversations, you know. Some people don't like talking about it, so you're not gonna be forthcoming with that information to. Them, but having a tech service where you can be pretty anonymous and do it in your own time, you're not having to answer someone's call. I think that's. Great. Any way that people can. Get something off their mind or off their chest and vocalise. It you know. The old what's expression about a problem shared as a problem have? It's so true. As soon as you just open up that conversation, you feel that relief like, oh, great, you know, now I'm not just not just me having to carry that burden.

Carter

Yeah. Certainly. I think just being able to to know and understand that you're not the only one going through through the trenches is is a massively important part of being a new parent or even being a veteran parent with a newborn. Yeah, just just knowing that there's other people out there that have gone through similar situations, which is, you know, a massive part of of why I've started this podcast, you know, it's about, like pulling community knowledge and and being able to share in, in those triumphs and more importantly, the the tribulations and the real kind of downfalls that you do have. And you know, hopefully this certain episode or another episode reaches a person that's going through something similar to what's being discussed and and just in that moment, they don't feel alone. And find comfort in those things.

Ali

I just have something on that note. Carter, I have a little fairy to float with you. So my theory is that everybody has, you know, mental health or some people that, that mental health is into mental ill health or mental illness. And not everybody is comfortable talking about it. Right. So this is my theory and. You know, it may rub some people up the wrong way, and that's OK that's part of the the risk of doing something like volunteering. Panda, is that you are vulnerable when it is scary. But my theory is that it takes people like. You and me. And the other guests on your show and the other Panda community champions and the people that run organisations like Beyond Blue and Lifeline. It takes people like us who have the courage. To put their hand up and say, Yep, I'll tell my story. Yep, it may upset some people. It may make some people question themselves or question you as the person. Maybe some people won't believe you. Maybe some people think you're over exaggerating what you went through, or, you know, I don't know. It's scary because you are literally putting your hand up. And saying Yep. I'm going to do this because there are a lot of people that they don't feel like they can talk. About it. Because they're going to be judged or criticised or. Held to account in some sort. So yeah, my theory is that it takes people who are brave and courageous and willing to to put themselves out there and say this is my experience and. If can be. This can be of any help to. Anyone else then? My job is done like for me. How I. Think of it as with my work with Panda and this interview and. If I can reach 1. Person out there who's struggling and thinking I can't do another day of this. I cannot get through another night. I cannot possibly wake up tomorrow and do it all again. I can't like I have been there. I have had those. Thoughts. It's very scary. And I can't emphasise enough the importance of seeking professional help. But if I can reach one person and have them go, oh, OK, well, it's not just me. I I can get through this with support. However, that looks whether it's. GP whether it's psychology, whether it's panda, whether it's medication, even just telling someone, telling a friend, telling a family member, telling a neighbour I can reach one person, then all of those moments of darkness and 2020 for me and partially 2022. It was all worth something.

Carter

Yeah, 100% it it certainly speaks to it takes a village to raise a child, which is 110% correct. But I think even more importantly, it takes a village to be a. Parent, you can't do it on your own.

Ali

It does, and I often think that, yeah, I often think of communities, you know ahead of a friend of the day who just came back from Samoa and she was saying you should see the way. They parent there, it's. All you know, everyone lives next to each other and you've got grandma helping out with this child while that mum's tending to that one and aunties over here cooking dinner while someone else is putting that one to bed. And that's how we're meant to be like that. That is how we're meant. To live and more. Importantly, how we're meant to parent. We're not meant to parent, you know, in four walls and insular and and not talking about things and keeping it all you know. And I think social media has a lot to answer for there because you you do, you go on social media. And you see. These parents who look like they've got it all together and yeah, I was guilty of doing that. For sure, you know I. I remember clearly last year. Posting this picture of Georgia sleeping her pram and you know, a little hashtag like uh sleeping baby or out for a walk or something. And I remember getting home and deleting it and thinking, why did I put that up? I'm having a great day. Like, I'm not feeling good. And yet what I've just posted is this picture that people would look at and think.

Speaker

Ohh gosh look.

Ali

At her and her beautiful baby. And it's a nice day in Melbourne and Ohh. Lucky you know what a great life and and yeah, I was feeling really. Down in the. Dumps and I just thought, why do you do that? No, that's so inauthentic. So now with all the content I post for Panda. Yeah, it's it's all laid bare, and some of it is. Probably bordering on maybe oversharing, I don't know, but that's I I figure I'm either all in or I'm all. Out and I'm all in and.

Carter

Yeah, yeah, I think I think in terms of you posting those types of things and a lot of people posting those types of things that I don't think it should be viewed as a bad thing. I think you do need to be aware of of the message that other people will receive. But I also think it's incredibly important to understand. And the shame behind those sorts of things, and the reason in which you feel ashamed. And it's not because of you and it's not because of anything that you've done, but it's because of how society views people who aren't doing well. You know, they they think this person's not doing well because of XY and Z and they paint a very black and white picture as far as mental health goes, when they don't understand that. All of mental health lives in a very, very grey area and there is nuance and there's balance and there's. A million different tiny moving pieces of this. Massive machine and you know one single snapshot from that day, regardless of how you're feeling. I don't think you should judge yourself so harshly for.

Ali

Thank you. That's very kind. I think too. On that note, you know it's important you just alluded to it then, but it's important to remember too that everything's always in flux, like nothing's constant. And I remember it was maybe a maternal and child health nurse or a midwife. Early on with Claudia. And and she said to me. Just remember, if you can, everything is a face. Everything's a. Face the poor sleep. You know, that seemed to be a very long phase in our household, but. Anyway, it's a. Phase, you know. Teething is a phase toilet training is a phase returning to work as a phase starting daycare is a phase changing daycare starting school. Everything is a phase we haven't entered into the school like, you know, school. Years or anything yet but. That's that's down the road and I just often come back to that. It's the season. It's a phase like it does pass, it does change, but it's really, really hard to see that when. You're in it and. Particularly first time because you don't. Have the evidence that. Actually could it does go away. You haven't seen it, right? And you don't know that. It does write itself as a baby gets older and you know you don't know that sleep progressions pass because you haven't had them before, but they do. That you just, I think, yeah, there's a real lack of honest conversations out there and parenting and it's not that you wanna say to expectant parents or new parents. Ohh well, you know your your baby might have colic or they might have a really bad sleep progression or you know, it's not about that. It's about having solutions or suggestions. It's about. OK, well, and if you are struggling with sleep, if your baby is in a great sleeper, here's a great consultant I used. Or here's an online guide I downloaded. I found it really helpful. Well, for me, I remember my mom saying to me, you know, with the night feeds, do something really nice for yourself, like make yourself a a cup of warm Milo. And it seemed like the littlest thing, you know, I remember she and I went to. The shopping centre and bought a fluffy dressing gown and a massive tin of Milo. And every night feed of which you. Know there were, I don't know, 3-4 overnight. I'd wake up and I make a cup of Milo because it was like warm. It was a bit. Of sugar, a bit of energy and you know, and it was just like this little thing that I could do that made myself a little bit better about waking up every few hours. So. Yeah, I think just those honest conversations about what to expect and and not painting it in a negative light. But just being really honest, you know, if your baby has call it, this is a product I use that I found really helpful. You know, if your baby has a tongue, tie uses really great GP and and and he assesses and treats them. So I think it's the lack of that. It's like why do we have to? I've got a friend who recently gave birth in Ireland and she was saying to. Me. She's had a difficult feeding journey and she was. Saying, you know. Why does it take? To get to this point where? It's it's so hard for me. Until someone's like. Ohh well, let's maybe get your lactation consultant. Why is there not information before we give birth here? Here's a list of services if you have issues feeding. If you suspect a tongue tied. If your baby has colic, and I know you know, maybe some of that's contentious around tongue ties and colic and things. But I just feel like there needs to be more done going into parenthood so that you almost have a toolkit. That you hopefully won't need, but if you do, it's there rather than three. Again, frantically Googling like my baby won't stop screaming. What should I do? Do you what? I mean like, where's the prophylactic measures? There's a real lack, yes.

Carter

There is a a very large lack of of early intervention resources for new parents especially. Yeah, just just in, in being able to be informed. You know, the hospitals and things like that in which you give. Birth. They always tout how they're very information based, but it just isn't because nobody wants to talk about those. Topics nobody wants to talk about. How how you know you may you may have a full on breakdown and you know after giving birth to all three of my kids, you know we'd have, we'd have midwives or the maternal child health nurse kind of come and see us. And they would, they would really, really drive home. Don't shake your baby. And you know at the time, that's a real shock to the system because you're just you're holding your beautiful child and you're so overwhelmed with love and these beautiful emotions and you think, how could you ever ******* say that to me? Like, I love my child so much. And then six weeks later, after. You know, going three days without a shower and you're not sleeping, you're not eating, and your your mental health is just in rapid decline. You certainly empathise with it, and you certainly understand why. They definitely say it after after repairing gives birth. It's it's not something and it's been discussed on previous podcast. It's not something that I will ever condone, but it's something that I emphasise, empathise, empathise with and understand how someone can get to that stage. But just in case. Anyone is listening and has those feelings. Just put your baby down and go out. Go outside for 1520 minutes and just have care of yourself.

Ali

And you know what? I actually did this. I actually did that when Carter was little and at this dreadful colour. And it was literally every single night from about four or five till midnight, she screamed. It was dreadful because I didn't know what to do. Yeah, I'd feed her and it would make her worse. And then I ended up cutting out everything out of my diet because I thought maybe it's me. And then my milk supply dropped, and then she was hungry. And, you know, just a cycle. Anyway, someone had said to me, I can't remember who it was. Maybe. Midwife and my husband was on night shift at this point too, so he left at 7:00 PM and was home at 7 the next morning. When I needed help and no one could come and help me because of lockdown and someone said to me. Yeah, I know. Who it was, it was one of my friends who's a paediatrician. Frida. She said to me. Ali put her down somewhere safe and her bassinet. Or on the on the mat. Make sure she's warm. Nothing that she can, you know, grab onto. Obviously she was too little to reach, but. She said go outside, she will cry. She will scream. But it's no different to her.

Speaker

Screaming, crying when?

Ali

You're inside. And I did. And I stayed on the phone with her. And she, you know, I was. Out by the washing line. And and we live on a by Melbourne standards at a a fairly decent sized block, but even at the very back of the block down where our trucks are, you could hear this baby absolutely howling. And but even us being outside, taking some breaths, I think I hung out some washing or bought washing it or something. That was enough for me. To just. Like decompress a little bit and then go. And so I think that is a really, really important tip. It sounds like doesn't not going to do a. Lot but it actually is.

Carter

Very, very helpful. Yeah, certainly it's it's very important. And good Lord, those those screams really just cut through to your absolute soul and it's and it's terrible, terrible, terrible. So yeah. First and foremost. Take yourself out of the equation. Put your baby somewhere safe. They will be OK. You are not traumatising your newborn baby by letting her cry it out or him. Right out while you take care of yourself, they are not going to be forming core memories of neglect. They will be safe. They will be much more safe than if you persevere and reach your absolute limit. And in a moment of pure panic and frustration and sleep deprivation just kind of do something that that could. Have lifelong implications for you and your baby and your family. And just just horrible, horrible thing.

Ali

You're not leaving them. Long. I'm talking like 90 seconds sort of thing. You know, they're not out there. They're not on their own for 30 minutes. Yeah, it's just it's. It's that physical. Removing yourself away. Just one thing I remember. Now. Just on that note of that, those early early. Days one other. Really cool piece of advice someone gave me and again. I cannot recall who it was. Was others and Nahuas, as my psychologist Karola? She said to me, you need to be able to find joy and really small things because the the things that used to give you joy going for a 10. K run, you know. Having a great day and smashing out your clients at work and seeing results. You know those big things, they're not going to happen for some time. You need to take your in really, really little things which I struggle with. And I said OK, well, I need examples. But a tangible person, like what? And she said. OK. So go out next time in the supermarket or the chemist. Go and smell all the different body washes. All the different soaps. Find one that you love and I'm thinking, oh, this is not going to do anything. Find one. That you love and. Buy it, even if it's the most. Expensive one just. Buy it every time you have a shower. Focus on the smell of that soap. And you want to this day, three years on, I still do that every time I go and choose another one. It's like a big deal. It's like the that my highlight in my supermarket shop is like finding the best smelling soap or body. And it was the tiniest little thing. But for that, you know. Couple of minutes you're in the shower. Each day. It was like the highlight. Ohh, it's so it's. It smells so good and it feels so nice in my skin. And she's like, be really mindful when you're washing your body with that. So how it. Smells how it feels. You know, you can still smell it on your skin after you got out of the shower and it was like this tiny little thing. And the other thing on that note that she said is, you know, do you have the ears? Yes. And I was like, yeah. And she said, OK, so I want you every morning after you had your shower or even you know beforehand. Put a pair. Of earrings in. I don't care what they. Are tiny studs. Great, big dangly ones to wear. Or wedding. Put a pair of earrings. And again, I was like, oh, it's stuck on make any difference. But it was all these little tiny things that. I could do that were really manageable. Took four seconds to put a pair of earrings in or choose a nice soap, but just these little micro moments in the. Day where you catch your reflection you think. Ohh actually they look. Really nice or I can smell that. Soap like there's. Little tiny micro moments. She's like, forget the big things or not. Happen. Yeah. So just, yeah, focusing on the really little things that you can influence, I think that was a really cool and practical tip that. She gave me.

Carter

Yeah, that's a it's a really, really great tool to keep in your your mental health toolbox. It's a pretty great grounding technique which I've utilised over my entire life. You know, for different reasons, but it it it really is, you know, things like sense of smell, sense of touch or utilising any of your senses to activate.

Speaker

Yes, you tried.

Carter

A core memory for yourself, and if you're very mindful of of creating that core memory, which is what you're doing, you know you went and found the soap and you were mindful of. You know the happiness that that smell brought you. You were able to form that kind of really important memory, and now you still utilise that to this day to ground yourself and be present in that moment. And it's quite literally smell the roses, you know, in it's pure purest of forms. So yeah, super helpful for anyone listening. Definitely take that advice on board. Find something that you love to smell. Find something that you know is soothing for you to touch. Find something that you love to eat in moderation because food can become quite an emotional crutch, which is something that I am still dealing with to this. Day, even for myself, you know, post autism diagnosis, I'm still finding those kind of little things really, really good for when I'm feeling overwhelmed or in autistic burnout. I have my little moments where I just, I just need to utilise my creature comforts and that grounds me and that allows me to take a breath and feel a little bit less. Overwhelmed and be able to be the best I can be for my family and for. My kids. Super, super important.

Speaker 1

And you, you.

Ali

Raised a really good point there, Carter, and it may sound obvious, but you know you cannot be the best parent, husband, wife, friend, sibling, son, daughter, colleague, business partner, Physio, you know, youth, justice worker. If you're not looking after yourself, you can't and you know the the psychologist we had come to work yesterday. She said, you know, self cares are all buzzword at the moment. She sort of annoys me because, you know, hashtag self care. It's a bit cheesy, but it is. A real thing. And I actually listen to a very interesting podcast of the day by Lyle Stone. I'm not sure if you've heard of Lale. She's a I. I consider her to be one of my. I've never met her, but one of my mentors and parenting.

Carter

I have not.

Ali

And just all things motherhood. And yeah, parenthood. Anyway, she did a great podcast with the Imperfects. She's. Done a couple. Then and she was talking about self care and how you. A lot of us haven't had self care modelled with our parents or grandparents because previously they haven't had the time, the resources, the money, the energy to take care of themselves. However, that looks so, you know, we are the generation that is having to prioritise things like, you know, if you're lucky enough to go and do an exercise class. Or the coffee with your. Friends and peace and quiet. Or you know if having a massage is available to you, but it doesn't have to be expensive or elaborate. It can literally be a 10 minute walk on my own with no one hanging off me and how we need to rethink self care in terms of it not being selfish or luxurious or indulgent, but actually completely necessary to be. A good person, and particularly a good parent.

Carter

And also just in case anyone isn't aware of, you know there's a lot of products out there for for those types of things in particular, you know, self soothing and grounding and. And you know anyone suffering from being touched out or burned out or over stimulated? I myself, I have a fidget necklace. I have a fidget ring for when sounds and things are a little too much for me. I have loop ear plugs. It is a worthwhile investment. If you do find that you suffer from overstimulation, especially from noise. But these types of tools and fidget rings and, you know, sensory slime, things like that, have been absolutely amazing in my ability to ground myself and calm myself down and self soothed. So I can, I can be the best version of myself for my family. Yeah. So before we wrap up, is there anything else?

Ali

I love that.

Speaker

So good on you.

Carter

You want to.

Ali

No, I'm. I'm just delighted to have the opportunity to speak with you, Carol, and I hope it's, I hope it's been helpful to to hear my journey and I hope as I said, someone else might resonate with what I've spoken.

Carter

And finished up on.

Ali

And about and I guess you know the the take home message is it's not shameful to talk about mental health. You know previously it has been very taboo and very shameful and something that people will suffer in silence with. And sadly, I'm sure you're probably the same. I know. People who have taken their lives with depression and other mental illness, it's it's not OK and I just. Always think you know. What I would much rather put my hand up and be vulnerable and have these conversations. Knowing that it might help someone step back from the edge, you know, metaphorically. Yeah, I just the the risk of things going really wrong. And parenthood I. Think is very real. And I've been there. I've been in a very, very dark place where I could have ended. You know, I I was right there on the cusp. Sorry, that's just maybe a bit emotional. But I sought help and I got through it. But people don't Carter, and this is The thing is that people don't understand it. It's not about bringing attention. To yourself, or look at me in my journey. And aren't I such a hero? It's it's.

Speaker 1

It's none of.

Ali

That it's it's the opposite, it's actually. I think it's being very selfless and saying well. This is what I've. Been through and if I can help one other person know they're. Not alone and that. There are resources and there are people and there are supports that can and. Will help you. And you know, it's OK to not be OK. Yeah. As I said then, makes me feel like any dark moment I had in the past three years or even back to 2010, when it all started for me. It was all worth it. My cousins, one of my cousins, she said to me. Ally, you realise what you're doing? And I said no. And she said you're turning your pain into power. And I just thought that is such a cool way to describe what I'm hopefully. How? How? It's hopefully coming off what I'm doing with Panda and and these types of conversations with you today.

Carter

Yeah, definitely. I I really, really appreciate you sharing all of that with me and with our listeners. It's it's truly it's truly something special to be able to be that vulnerable in the moment, knowing that this could potentially reach, you know, thousands of people down the track. So I really do thank you for that incredibly brave, and I I'm more than happy to throw those types of things out to other people who are willing to share their story. But I'm still working on receiving it. And I, you know, I've had people tell me that, you know, you're. You're a role model and you're incredibly brave and all of this, but it's kind of water off a duck's back. For me, I I I don't feel that I still feel rather imposter syndrome. So that's, you know, something. That that I'm still working on and I think that's really important to to discuss openly as well as that you. Know outwardly, people may look at this podcast and think you know what, what an incredible thing this person is doing and they they must have it sew together and you know they're they're incredibly selfless. But you know, I'm just. I'm just another bear. I'm in the shower and and I I have my struggles and I have my little wins and my little fails every day just like everyone else. So I think it is really, really important to highlight that and in the moment anyone who is struggling. Is to just be kind to yourself, you know, reach out to your community, whatever that community is, reach out to things like Panda or beyond blue or lifeline. And yeah, just, just just really try to be the best you can be. Even in those dark times and and understand that life and parenthood and all of those things are dynamic. And they are forever ebbing and flowing and changing in ways that you can't even perceive. So yeah, very important, just in that moment, ground yourself, take a breath, do what you need to do. Seek help. Have a chat. Reach out to anyone and everyone and just understand that you'll wake up the next morning and it'll be a completely different day. Might be better, might be worse, but just knowing that you have people that there and supports. That you can rely on using incredibly beneficial. Awesome. Thanks so much for joining. Me today. I really appreciate it.

Ali

Thank you.

Carter

And we'll talk soon.